Unpacking Truths
Dive deep into God's word and unpack divine truths for today's life journey. In a world where everyone is seeking, join us as we guide you to find hope and power in God's timeless wisdom. If our discussions spark questions or ideas, reach out to us at UnpackingTruths@LOCChurch.com. Don't forget to Like, Share, and Subscribe, allowing us to continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives! Hosted by Pastor Kendall Koenig and Pastor Maureen O'Connor of Light of Christ Church in Algonquin, IL.
Unpacking Truths
How to Talk to People You Disagree With
When the world seems to fracture with every disagreement, Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo invite listeners to a conversation that draws on the deep well of Christ's love. Have you ever found your heart heavy, struggling to bridge the gap when faith and family don't see eye to eye? They've been there, and this episode is their heartfelt response, brimming with stories like Pastor Mo's own clash with his sister over theology, and filled with strategies to foster understanding and preserve the bonds that matter most.
Together, Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo navigate the intricate dance of holding firm to their beliefs while extending an olive branch of empathy and kindness. They reflect on Jesus' radical teachings, emphasizing the grace of assuming the best in others and engaging with a gentle spirit. Join them as they contemplate environmental stewardship through the lens of scriptural humility and truth, offering practical steps to care for the creation entrusted to us. This episode isn't just about finding common ground; it's about nurturing the soil from which mutual respect and love can grow.
#FaithAndFamily #ChristLove #BridgeTheGap #FaithDisagreements #FamilyHarmony #JesusTeachings #EmpathyAndKindness #EnvironmentalStewardship #MutualRespect #LoveAndUnderstanding
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What mug did you grab Mo?
Speaker 2:My favorite mug. It is the mug of love. It has you and your wifey on it.
Speaker 1:Perfect, perfect. Thank you for sharing that. It is perfect. You know, mo, the topic for today how to have conversations with people you disagree with. I have so much practice in this because I deal with it day to day dealing with you, oh, isn't that nice.
Speaker 2:It's actually how to love people that you don't agree with.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's the topic.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I was close. We wrestle back and forth a little bit.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2:And I'm Pastor Mo and we are Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1:Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life. Today, everyone is seeking, and we are here to help you find hope and power in God's Word. Mo, why don't you share? You had told me you have a story of a time when and I think this is such an apropos topic because there are so many folks in our nation, in churches, in communities, in families, where there's so much division and different viewpoints. And how do you have conversations, how do you love people, how do you deal with that, those differences?
Speaker 1:So you have a story to start us with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just like. How do you look like Christ when you are dealing with people who have completely different viewpoints, maybe different values than you? For me personally, when I had discerned and it took many years of discernment to walk down this path of being a pastor right, my sister thinks very theologically different and many of my family members they're Irish Catholic. They come out of a context where women can't be pastors. My sister, very evangelical, and her background with her husband, genuinely believe in love, even though she said, hey, satan's using you. And I was like whoa and of course my first approach was I wrote this long. I had to get off the phone with her or I was going to not look like Jesus with my words. And then I wrote this huge email, right, and it had all these points and historical references. And then I just said at the end of it and I was like for what? This isn't what love looks like, shouting here's all the areas how you're wrong.
Speaker 1:Had you written it all in caps too?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely All bold. It was bold and caps and red, but wait, she's blind, so I don't know any of that would have mattered, because it just speaks to her. So unless it shouted at her, then I would have been happy, but I knew it wasn't going to. So yeah, I mean. So that was a really hard space and we've had to just not talk about it, right, like what does it look like to say, hey, we're not going to see eye to eye in this, and there's a lot that.
Speaker 1:I've learned also dealing with family members and stuff throughout this process of loving those with very different viewpoints. So how about yourself? You know, when we came on this topic, I thought in some ways, as a pastor for 34 years, this is what I've been called to do. I mean, you pastor in a church where you don't agree with every person's perspective, but part of my role as a pastor is to love them. So in some ways it's been a great training ground to learn how to do that. But let's get practical here, and I know you have some ideas, some strategies and I'll jump in and add some other thoughts. So why don't?
Speaker 1:we start in so where do you think you start on this?
Speaker 2:Definitely. So some really practical ways and things that I've learned is the first thing that I do is I reframe my lens right, like I reframe the way I see them and myself. So who are they? I have to remind myself. This is a child of God, I am told. They are wonderfully made right and so right there. That levels the ground and I have to see them quite differently. I also have to remind myself of who I am. I am somebody who has to die to myself daily. We see that in Luke 9. I'm somebody that has to live a life filled with love, as we see in Ephesians 2. And it's one of our greatest commandments as well Do to others as you would have them, do to you Like. All these things have to come into my being before I have these conversations. I literally have to remind myself of who they are and who I'm called to be before I even start talking, cause it helps.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and I think that's so important and I love that. That's where you start, because I think it is we, we you people often think of these as well. I'm going to go into battle for this, but no to to. To look at it, this is a child of God, I'm a child of God and we're going to have a conversation. So how do I love this person, even though they're in a different place? And I think where you pointed us to, I mean great scriptures, the last one where Jesus simply said love your neighbors yourself. If you're going to have to interact with someone who sees things very differently, how do you want them to treat you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you look like loving that Treat?
Speaker 1:them that way. I mean, sometimes we think of Jesus' teachings as this like pie in the sky. It's very practical. Yeah, Literally. How would you want someone to treat you if they disagree with you? Would you want them yelling at you? No, probably not. Do you want them calling you names? Probably not. Do you want them forcing stuff down? You're like, well see, obviously that's not what you want. That wouldn't feel loving to you, so don't do that to others.
Speaker 2:Is what Jesus is saying Well, and he lives that out so beautifully. And I always ask myself, how does he do this? Because here are these people that are trying to belittle him and shame him and make him look like an idiot or accuse him of being a drunkard or a false prophet all these things. And he just sits. He just calmly and filled with peace and confidence in who he is, is always approaching them in love and wisdom. He calmly just asks them questions most of the time, and I seek to be like that, but it doesn't always work. But we try.
Speaker 1:But part of that is Jesus remembered who he was. Absolutely and that's what you were saying. It's remembering who that person is, but also remembering who you are. You are a beloved child of God, Even if this person doesn't see it that way.
Speaker 2:Remembering that about yourself Because we can so quickly our thoughts, our ideas. We can confuse them with being who we are, oh yeah, and then it becomes their opposing, is attacking our identity and who we are as a person.
Speaker 1:Rather than a debate around ideas, it's about your actual personhood. Yes, now, with the topic you had used earlier, I could see how that would go to your personhood, I mean, but there are a lot of issues that don't go in that way. Some do, though.
Speaker 2:Right, but it's not an attack of my personhood. I have to know who I am in Christ and where my worth comes from, not from what others think, and so that it's a good place to start.
Speaker 1:I think it's a good place to start. I think it's a great place to start. What's the next thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So another one I have is actively listening. That is so, so huge. Wisdom listens and fools talk. I mean that's all throughout scripture. We see in Proverbs 18, a fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing their opinion. And we have if one gives an answer before they hear. It is a shame. That's in Proverbs 18. There's just so much being quick to listen, slow to speak in James and let the wise hear. So much about stopping ourselves and just listening and really being present to hear what they have to say, because so often we think about what we want to say before the other person is even finished and we don't even understand what they're saying most of the time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's that. And so, friends, go to Bible Gateway or whatever, plug in, listen and look in the Proverbs, for all of those scriptures that Mo pointed to. I had them on my sheet too, because those are great ones and those are great reminders. It is, and part of where that whole perspective, though, in listening, is. It's taking on what St Francis of Assisi said in his powerful and wonderful prayer. He said oh divine master, grant me not so much that I would seek to be understood as to understand. We're always wanting to foist our ideas out on others, when the first place we should go is to listen.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it's funny that you said that, because that's the very next thing that I make sure that I try to implement is seeking to understand rather than to be understood, and this is often done by questions. So it's all about questions, and I look at Jesus' life and that's what he does most of the time as a child. We're told that Jesus asks questions in the temple. He's sitting among the teachers listening to them and asking questions. That's in Luke 2. Jesus asks questions of his disciples. He asks questions to the Pharisees. Even the disciples ask questions to Jesus for clarification. Understanding where someone is coming from will reframe so many times what you are thinking about, their idea or their thought because you're just perceiving it maybe differently than what they're actually trying to get across.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there's two levels of questioning. One is do I really understand what they're saying? Yeah, and our tendency is oh, I know what they're saying, but we got to pull it back in ourselves. Do I really understand? But then I think it's that follow-up question why did you get to this position?
Speaker 2:Or how, yeah, or how did you get to?
Speaker 1:this position? Or how, yeah, or how did you get to this place of thing? Or am I jumping ahead on your, your list?
Speaker 1:oh, no, no, you know um, because I think that you know, in the one of the class that we've been taking, they're talking uh, they lifted up this idea of, rather than being judgmental, be curious. Yes, that's so often we're foisting our judgment on other people's ideas rather than being curious, like, well, tell me how you got there, but how did you get to that perspective? Because and I was I just watched a YouTube video where some master trainer was talking about having difficult conversations and he lifted up that same idea he didn't name, he got it from scripture. But that asking why that? What happens is is, if you can begin to trace back how someone got there, you can begin to connect with them at a human level. And you're not just reacting idea clash to idea clash, you're understanding where they came from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or you may come to realize that you weren't understanding what they were saying at all Exactly, or they're like no, no, no, that's not what I meant. Let me explain this differently, and so you're giving the opportunity for them to explain it on a deeper level, maybe, where it came out of all those things which will help reframe the whole conversation. So it's so powerful to ask questions.
Speaker 1:It just is and you know, as I was reflecting on this, they're sort of, if you're interacting with someone who you think or you assume has different viewpoints than you, you have sort of three choices you can either try to make sure they understand your truth and your perspective, or you can really seek to understand their perspective, or you can focus on just maintaining the relationship. But you can't do all of those. I mean, especially if you are just focused on I've got to make sure, Mo, you understand my truth. I'm probably putting the relationship to the side, and there are times when I think we need to just get to the point of going like, okay, we're going to agree, to disagree. I'm going to focus on the relationship, even if we're never going to come to agreement. And the truth is you're never going to agree with anyone, everyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone, hopefully anyone. Hopefully we'll agree with a couple of people Once in a while. I probably agree with a few of you out there. He doesn't ever agree with me, so that's true, that's another story, so another one is so let's say, you don't agree with the person, right?
Speaker 2:You guys, you've asked your questions, you've actively listened, you've really heard them, but you don't agree. We are to avoid judging. I remind myself to avoid judging and one of the verses that really gets me that Jesus says is do not judge, or you too will be judged the same way you are judging others. That one convicts me so much from Matthew 7, because I'm like no, I don't want to be judged the way I'm judging others. So it's powerful and it reminds me to check myself in that, because I don't want to be judged in the same manner. Right, Like I want people to assume the best of me. I want people, yeah.
Speaker 1:That, assuming the best. That's one of the things that I loved when Martin Luther did his small catechism and he did his reflections on the commandments. And the eighth commandment, at least in the way Luther ordered them, was do not bear false witness against your neighbor, and I remember learning this as a 14-year-old in confirmation class. But we should fear and love God, so we're not curse, swear, lie or deceive or in these other parts, but the last phrase and put the best construction.
Speaker 1:Hmm, hmm on your neighbor's actions, that you describe it in the best possible way, to other people, but also to yourself, so that you're not just looking, listening to what other people say and going like, well, yeah, of course they came out in that because. But you're going like, well, what is the kindest way that I could understand, they could see this?
Speaker 2:And we don't even have to assume, if we go back to the asking questions, right, and you can say like, hey, what I'm hearing you say is this, or can I mind thinking they meant by what they said? And that's so powerful? Because then that allows for that space of clearing things up or just diving deeper into it or understanding one another.
Speaker 1:And yeah, yeah, but even when they're saying it, you can still be looking like pouncing on the negative things that they say, or you can say well, they probably meant to say it this way. I mean, are you framing it? How are you filtering their words? Are you looking for the negative or are you looking for the commonality? And where can we find commonality? Not that we're going to agree with everyone. I don't agree with everyone. But you know, as Jesus said in where is this? Matthew 5, where he says if you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Jesus calls us to a love and a kindness to everyone, especially the people we disagree with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that speaks in the next thing that I try to make sure to always do, Calls us to a love and a kindness to everyone Right, especially the people we disagree with yeah, and that speaks in the next thing that I try to make sure to always do, which is approach things with humility, because humility is so important and that's what you're talking about. Like, what does it look like to approach them, even if I disagree, even if we don't see eye to eye, you know, with kindness, with gentleness, all these things we're told to be and look like? In Philippians 2, it says, do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves, and that's pretty powerful. Like I have to approach this where I can't let my pride and my ego, even if I think I'm completely right and I think they're an idiot I mean not that, yeah, I do sometimes when I would especially with my family.
Speaker 2:And so it's like, ah, but, but what does that look like for me to stop myself and go wait, who do I, who am I viewing myself to be, that Like, I think I'm better than them, or I'm smarter than them, or you know, for me to even judge them like that? And I'm supposed to be approaching them, think, in a way where they're I view them with eyes that they're, you know, wonderfully made, they're better than I in some ways, like what does that mean? And I would approach them in a different way, right?
Speaker 1:You know, mo, I really think this humble perspective is crucial and I want to say, especially to Christians who are listening to this podcast, that one of the traps that I think we can fall into is that, as believers, if we love God and we love scripture and we end up with strong opinions based on those two Scripture and we end up with strong opinions based on those two, we assume we've got to be right, because I love God and I love Scripture. So I got to be right and I just want to lift up for everyone here and we talked about this before, friends there are a whole lot of people in Scripture who love God, love Scripture and were utterly wrong, absolutely. So I mean, it started with the Pharisees.
Speaker 1:They loved God they loved scripture and Jesus kept saying you're seeing it wrong.
Speaker 2:They had it wrong. And same with the zealots that were the opposite side. They wanted to use force, they wanted to use violence to get what they thought was justice, and that was wrong as well.
Speaker 1:You bet Paul. Paul started out murdering Christians, murdering. Christians trying to arrest and have Christians killed, yeah. And then he discovered because he believed in God and he loved Scripture.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then Jesus had to knock him off his high horse literally and go you're wrong, paul. And then Peter thought that Gentile people who are coming to believe in Jesus probably needed to be circumcised and probably needed to have kosher food. And he had to have Paul confront him on one and have a dream on the other for God to get his thinking changed. So we need a humbleness in our approach because, just because I love God and love scripture, I may be wrong.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And if there's one thing that God continues to do throughout scripture and just life in general, is to show us how we have no clue what he's doing or his character fully. He reveals it mostly, we see, in the most unlikely circumstances and we're told God's ways aren't our ways, they're far beyond our ways. And Jesus, when in Luke 18, he says all those who exalt themselves will be humbled and those who humble themselves will be exalted. And he's talking. He's speaking into when a Pharisee and a tax collector were in the temple together and the tax collector pounded his chest and cried out to God I'm not even worthy to be here. Have mercy on me, god. Like he understood that. You know, he is nobody's worthy of this kind of love and all that God is doing in the world. And the Pharisee just thought himself righteous. And so we have to come with humble hearts and not seeking ourselves, as you know, as though we have no sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just think, as Christians, because we get the truth right about who Jesus is, we can think that we understand all the implications of that. And you just look at Christian history and we've messed up a lot. So we need to hold Jesus tightly and let Jesus hold us tightly, but hold some of our other beliefs a little more with open hands to say, okay, god, this is what you've convinced me of at this point, but I'm open to maybe you need to change me. I mean, that's what Paul needed to do, that's what Peter needed to do and that's what we need to do.
Speaker 2:First thing we're called to do is look at the log hanging out of our eye before we go picking splinters out of other people's eyes, like our job is to not look at that.
Speaker 1:It's so much more fun to see what's wrong in someone else than to look at ourselves.
Speaker 2:Damn you, mir. No, but I mean, that is where we're called to start. That's why King David was a man after God's own heart, because he was always searching himself and getting real with himself and being honest and being like this is where I've fallen short. I'm so sorry. I need to correct me. Our job is never to fix other people, never to save other people.
Speaker 1:That's God's responsibility and their responsibility.
Speaker 2:Our job is to look like love and compassion and mercy and forgiveness and non-judgment and God's presence in the world.
Speaker 1:That's our responsibility, and so yeah, and I think it's also. If there are situations where we are put in, we are in relationship with someone who really sees things differently and they keep coming at us about it, yeah, it's okay to just simply say I don't think this is healthy, or to simply say hey, let's agree.
Speaker 2:Can we say I don't think you're healthy, well, no that isn't.
Speaker 1:I don't think this is healthy.
Speaker 2:I mean, I mean, this isn't I don't think this is healthy.
Speaker 1:I mean, this isn't healthy. So sometimes we have to set those boundaries. But I think a lot more of the work is us getting our own selves grounded in what is real, grounded in love and grounded in who we are in God's eyes, so we don't have to fight every battle.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and I have to speak truth into this really quickly is that, as zealous as some people are about their truth? I love God, I know scripture. This is right and you're wrong. Here's the reality. You come out of a context, you come out of a family system, you come out of a way of thinking, you come out of values that were taught to you, you come out of a culture that believes a certain thing, and all of those things influence you to think that you are 100% right, and so does someone else that comes out of another, completely different context, and so just viewing things from a more realistic perspective like that, I think, is humbling for me, from you guys as well. Let us know what has worked for you when you're really dealing with our family, the people we genuinely love, neighbors, all have different viewpoints and different values. How do you do relationships with them? How do you love them like Christ? Please help us. Help me do this better. I'm trying.
Speaker 1:Next time on Unpacking Truths. I'm trying Next time on Unpacking Truths. I mean soggy straws. When you get those paper straws, no one likes that and other people are like, well, let me get a metal straw.
Speaker 2:So I'm reusing that.
Speaker 1:And I think those are little things, and I think part of what, as people who recognize that we have received this planet as a gift, we want to hand it on and that it is God's in the first place, we need to do the things that we can do. We can't do everything. I can't take out the swirling mass of plastics in the Pacific Ocean. I don't know how to do that.
Speaker 2:But I thought all things were possible through Christ, who gives me strength.
Speaker 1:They are, but not possible for Kendall. Thanks for tuning in. If anything we said brought up any questions or ideas, let's keep the conversation going in the comments below or email us at unpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2:And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we can continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives.
