Unpacking Truths

Is it the devil or is it God?

• LOC Church • Season 1 • Episode 119

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✝️ Unpacking Truths: Episode 119: Is it the devil or is it God?

Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads, wrestling with choices that tug you between right and wrong? In this soul-searching journey through the murky waters of good and evil, Pastor Mo and Pastor Kendall embark on a heart-to-heart discussion. This episode is a deep dive into the everyday moral quandaries everyone faces, addressing tough questions head-on. Through scripture and personal narratives, such as an encounter with the seductive logic of infidelity, they shed light on the importance of discerning God's voice amidst the cacophony of life's temptations. Their candid conversation aims to equip listeners with the discernment needed to navigate the trials and tribulations that life presents.

Listeners are invited to join as they grapple with the ripple effects of actions on future generations, pondering the responsibility held for environmental stewardship and personal well-being. Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo reflect on the trials of St. Paul and share their own experiences in interpreting life's hurdles—whether they are divine tests or snares by the evil one. The dialogue then shifts to the profound, ongoing journey of working out one's salvation. Inspired by Paul's message to the Philippians, this discussion emphasizes the listener's role in the exchange through comments, emails, and shared experiences. Tune in to celebrate the pursuit of truth and embrace the transformative power of faith. 

#MoralChoices #FaithJourney #GoodVsEvil #BiblicalWisdom #SpiritualDiscernment #EverydayFaith #EnvironmentalStewardship #LifeTrials #PaulineTeachings #TransformativeFaith

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Speaker 1:

All right, so Kendall today is a good one. We have another question from one of our audience, which thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

It is. It's a big one though it's. How does evil and good work in the world? And so do you?

Speaker 1:

Do you remember those cartoons, right, where there was? You see the angel on one side and the devil on the other, and you, you know which way am I going to go? Well, who am I going to listen to, you know, and how that then changes the trajectory of our life? Right, and so we have within us this understanding of both good and evil, and there is this interplay in the world in ways that are seen and unseen, and so our question today was along the lines of what does this look like in the world when there's externally and internally right? So when there's things happening like somebody becomes ill, job loss, you know, the loss of someone far too soon, Is that evil at work? Is that something bad within the world moving, or is, you know, is that God at play Right? And then also internally, like I can't tell you how many friends that I have that are like, oh, god told me I need to take this job, or God told me I should be with this person, or God told me, and it's like, how do you discern what is God, what is your own voice and maybe what is the tempter? Putting something before you and we're just grabbing it and calling it God right, yeah, and yeah.

Speaker 1:

Really easy stuff.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks a lot everyone. We're going to try, we're going to unpack this, and I know who you are.

Speaker 1:

That's why it's not called revealing the truth, it's called unpacking it.

Speaker 2:

Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.

Speaker 1:

And I'm Pastor Mo and we are Unpacking Truths.

Speaker 2:

Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.

Speaker 1:

today, Everyone is seeking, and we're here to help you find hope and power in God's Word.

Speaker 2:

So, mo, why don't we wrestle first with sort of the internal stuff and then we'll talk some external stuff? So internal, I think that you know. I loved what you sort of hinted at when people are saying well, god told me I should do this, that whole discernment of how do I know if it's God telling me to do this, or is it the devil on my other shoulder that's wanting me to do that? And you know, and I think what you know. I think there's some simple things. I mean one is this aligned with Scripture?

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, the Word of God, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I mean and I'll tell you, I've told this story before where I had this early on, when I came to be a pastor, a guy took me out to breakfast and asked me, basically said you know, I'm married to this woman, but I really like this woman. It's okay for me to just drop her and go over here. And he just wanted me to basically, you know, give him a blessing. So yeah, and and sort of say, go for it. And I was like I can't do that because that isn't aligned with what God is. God's saying. You got to focus on your marriage. You can't be starting something else that time. So so I think there is this way.

Speaker 1:

And then did you like top it off with what Jesus said, Like if you even think of another woman lustfully, you've committed adultery. I don't think I quoted that scripture to him. I probably should have, but I didn't. That's if he's lucky he didn't come and ask me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you'd have given him even a stronger dose. But I think that is that power inside of us to rationalize our behavior and to say, oh, God wants me to do this, when maybe it's absolutely the opposite of God, the evil one tempting, or we have a strong feeling, right, and we don't know the word of God because we're really not in it at all, and so we assume.

Speaker 1:

Or maybe we've heard certain things about God and so we just assume that, oh, this is what God wants for my life, rather than taking a look at it. Because when you go into scripture, oh, my goodness, are you really held accountable to a way of being in the world that is, I feel, impossible without the Holy Spirit in so many ways? And Jesus is upping the ante right, like even those who you know, if you have lust in your heart, you've committed adultery. It's like Jesus is always upping the ante Like don't just love, you know, you need to love your enemy and the people that want to do you wrong and make your life miserable. It's always stretching us to do even more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so I think if it is something that is easy, comfortable and just what I want, I think that's the time to go like hold it. Is this really God speaking or is this the evil one trying to tempt me? And clearly in scripture Jesus talks about in Matthew, mark and Luke in the Synoptic Gospels they all talk about Jesus' time of temptation and he went out into the wilderness that 40 days and he wrestled with the devil and they all talk about that. And the only way we could know that that happened is if Jesus told the disciples that, if Jesus even wrestled with temptation and it's interesting, jesus' temptations were not go kill that person, it was turn stones into bread, it was trust God and throw yourself off the tower. So the devil was taking things that weren't inherently evil but they were good, but not trusting God and twisting them. So I think there is that discernment we have to do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we are told in scripture that Satan is the ruler of this world. I mean, we have it. The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out. That's in John 12, 31. However, so there is this idea that there is something evil, satan, at work, right, this evil entity in the world, but it doesn't have power over our will, right? So things are presented before us as you were talking about Jesus in the wilderness, but nothing is able to overtake us, right? And so we still have free will to choose. It's like that devil on the shoulder, right? Who are we going to choose? Are we going to follow the way of God, which is often harder and the narrower path, or are we going to follow, sometimes, a way that looks easier or more appealing in some ways, but actually will lead to our demise, and so? Yeah, and so that's a real thing too, right?

Speaker 1:

I can't tell you how many are battling with certain things, and the internet is no joke. I truly believe that the evil entity Satan call it whatever you want uses I mean, everyone could. All tools are used for good and bad, right, but like they, they will have an inner, they'll have a gambling addiction. I have one friend has a addiction and stuff pops up all the time for casinos and it's not the algorithm of like, because he has all new stuff and it's all linked to new accounts and all that Right, and still what'll pop up is all this gambling stuff and online gambling and opportunities to, you know, be parts of different sporting gambling things, and you know, and so it's really interesting. Now he's not forced to, you know, click on it or partake, yet the temptation always seems to be popping up.

Speaker 2:

You know, when this topic was in front of us, I grabbed one of my old Christian dogmatics books and I was reading through it.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that sounds fun.

Speaker 2:

Oh man, it's tedious and heavy and challenging.

Speaker 1:

But there was one short line that they said.

Speaker 2:

That is essentially what you had said. Temptation is not coercion, and I like that. When we talk about the devil's work in the world or Satan's work in the world in the New Testament, those two terms are often used interchangeably. But Jesus was tempted, he wasn't coerced. Mo and Kendall are tempted, but we're not coerced People. You are tempted but you're not coerced. That was your point about. We still have our will and so, while we may have like your friend has we may have a weakness in a certain area and how do we protect ourselves from those if we've struggled with an addiction in an area? But temptation is not coercion. So we still have authority, we still have abilities, we still have the ability to choose, but we can be tempted.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we're called to test, right To test it. In 1 John 4, 1, it says Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world, and so we are a people called to test all the things being put before us to see do they align with God's word, is this and to ask God and to discern in community too.

Speaker 2:

I think that's where community really comes in, yeah, and why don't we just rattle off a couple of these? So we're just real clear when you're trying to discern, hold it. Is this God's leading or is this the evil one's leading One? Does it align with scripture? God's not going to take you totally off course if God's word is directing in this way. But secondly, in community Community I think sometimes we need other people, because sometimes Scripture we've got to wrestle with it because, well, this Scripture is this way. How do we discern that? So I think we need other people.

Speaker 2:

There's also this taking it to God in prayer and going like what you know and really releasing it, because too often we go to prayer and we're like God, I really want to do this. Is it okay for me to do this? Right, it's not the way to say God, I'm drawn this way, but I don't want to go this way if it's not your will. And I think God can sometimes give us a peace or give us signs to saying this. But again, are we just looking for signs to confirm what we want and then ignoring the things that are going like red flashing lights? Don't do it, kendall. Don't do it. I'm going, yeah, but I see a little green one here.

Speaker 1:

Right. Well, and the reality is too, like Paul is telling the different churches at various times to be discerning in community. In Philippians he says and this is my prayer that your love may abound more in knowledge and depth of insight so that you may be able to discern what is best. And so we need to be a people praying together, discerning together. In Hebrews it's also said Hebrews 5.14, solid foods for the mature, but for those who have their powers of discernment, trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. And so there are also people that have been given this gift of discernment. It's a gift from God and we need those people in our lives and we need them to be part of our community, to be helping us discern right, what is of God, what is of our broken past, or the brokenness within us, or things. You know our selfish nature that we don't see right Because we love being blind to our problems. Like I can point out everyone else's flaws, but my own. You know that's just a natural part of you. Know who we are.

Speaker 2:

Well, and Mo, the line you just used, we're taking this class emotionally healthy spirituality, and they keep coming back to this phrase.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Jesus may be in your heart, but grandpa's in your bones Right, and there are things from our family of origin that shape us to see the world and think of the world in certain ways, and so we may have a predisposition to look at things one way, because this is the way our family always did it, but that may not be in alignment with God's word. So we've got to keep wrestling with that, so that Gramp in my bones isn't leading me but Jesus in my heart is.

Speaker 1:

Right and you know so it's not just looking to the word of God definitely, community is a need but also asking, like Scripture all over says ask for this stuff In 1 Kings 3, 9,. Give, therefore, thy servant an understanding heart to judge people, to be able to discern what is good and bad. There are various proverbs the rich are the wise in their own eyes. One who is humble and discerning sees how deluded we can be. And so it's going to God, asking God. You know, trust in the Lord with all your heart.

Speaker 1:

We're not to lean on our own understanding, and God will give us whatever we ask, we're told, as long as it's in alignment with you know God's will, and God's will is, of course, for us to know. Is this of God or not? But so that's kind of more internally when we're deciding things. But what about when? Externally? What about when someone becomes ill? What about when there is a car accident and someone you love passes far before their time? Or even accidents happen, natural disasters, and people are like what is happening here? Is this Satan? Is this God? What do you think about that?

Speaker 2:

Well, to address that, let me go to Luke 13, where this account of where Jesus healed a woman on the Sabbath and some of the religious leaders are coming down on him and Jesus says this. He says this dear woman, a daughter of Abraham, has been held in bondage by Satan for 18 years. Isn't it right that she be released, even on the Sabbath? Here Jesus seems to be pointing to that idea that some of the brokenness in our world and not just the brokenness out there but in our bodies and stuff is from sin, from the evil one. Now I don't think it's like the devil's zapped this person with this cancer or that, but I think what Jesus was pointing to is that all of this brokenness in the world is not what God intended, that it is. The evil ones work against that. So to me, the healing work in hospitals and all that is our pushing back against the brokenness in our world, and so it's good and it's of God. But Jesus makes some connection between physical body brokenness and the evil one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, as long as there isn't so anything that isn't good, right. But then we're judging what is good and not right and we don't know God's ways. So I often have this conversation with my kids right, this idea of why do these things happen? Sometimes, and honestly we talk about our sins, are passed on to the third and fourth generations. Things we do have consequences that we don't even know about.

Speaker 1:

The way we treat the earth has consequences that we don't even know about, sometimes causing disasters that aren't foreseen, and then things happening and people passing.

Speaker 1:

What we put in our bodies, what we allow to be in some of our foods, is disgusting, to be honest with you, and not allowed in other countries. And so what is that doing to us? It's doing things that we don't even know about and we are finding out about now some of them, just a fraction of them. I mean I'm I don't mean to be like I go to the doctor and I talk about an ailment and I'm given a medication and then I read the list of medications what that could do, like all the other things it affects and messes with, I just think sometimes the sins, the way we even do things, is not in alignment with what God had intended right. Maybe money is at the forefront, like how do we get the biggest bang for our buck? Maybe you know a quick fix rather than you know a lifestyle change. Whatever it is, there are consequences and so sometimes, sadly, others pay generationally with our genetics and as we continue to pass this stuff on.

Speaker 2:

It is, and so that is where there is this sense of the brokenness in our world. The sin in our world, the brokenness is not of God and it is not what God wants for us. So in that sense it's of the evil one, and so we are called to work against that, to strive against that, to stay grounded in what is real, in what is of God, and to lean into God's strength. But I think that whole question but the challenge becomes is sometimes to read the circumstances around us or things that are happening.

Speaker 2:

It's sometimes challenging to go. Is this against God or is this what God's wanting and you and I were talking about before this? I want to go to this what. St Paul said and there's this classic example where. Paul in 1 Thessalonians says to the people of Thessalonica I wanted to come and visit you, but Satan prevented me.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

A sense where the evil one was preventing him to get back to this community that he had founded.

Speaker 1:

I wanted to come on time to our meeting, but Satan prevented me. Yeah, mo, you can't use that one anymore. No, it's not going to work.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, I have a new one.

Speaker 1:

I wanted to be here. Kendall, I know I swear, yeah, I swear. Satan messed with me as I was curling my hair this morning.

Speaker 2:

Yep Broke my curling iron and so I'm late. So you have, on the one hand, Paul saying that Satan prevented me, but then you were also saying- yeah, that was in 217.

Speaker 1:

But Satan prevented me. But then you were also saying but then where did you?

Speaker 2:

find the one Acts 16, where Paul says that I wanted to go preach to Asia Minor but I couldn't because the Holy Spirit stopped me. Yeah, and so we have these things where Paul ran into barriers in his life and one time he said it was Satan that's buried, the other time he said God prevented me and Holy Spirit preventing me. And so there are these things like how did he discern that this was an evil stopping and this was a good stop?

Speaker 1:

So I did find in Philippians 119,. Paul says I know through prayers and God's provision of the Spirit, what has happened will turn out for my deliverance, will turn out for my deliverance. So there seems to be between prayer and God's provision, like when there's prayer going on and he sees God's provision, it seems to be attributed where that's God right. So maybe in areas where God doesn't seem to be providing or opening up doors or moving things in a way that seem like you're supposed to be here, or then it's attributed to Satan maybe Could be.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I was just. I was talking with a woman a few weeks ago who wanted to talk to me. She was trying to discern a direction for her life and that's kind of where we came down on.

Speaker 2:

It was sort of what she's heard from community, her own prayer life but, then somewhat going like okay, I'm not hearing God say no, so I'm going to keep walking in this path, but I'm going to be open to God closing a door by either not providing the provision or God providing in a way that it seems like, oh, this is working and I should be walking this path, and I think I'm not against too.

Speaker 1:

Like God says, ask and you'll receive it if it's in alignment with God's will and the kingdom. And so I've asked for things that have seemed impossible. Right, like, if God, if you want me to go to seminary, you're going to have to make a way where it's a full ride, and I know I'm not that smart. So I was like you know we'll see, and I got a full ride to undergrad too. Right, like I want to go to college, but God, if it's in your will, make it and make it happen. And I got a full ride there too. And so there is miraculous, awkward things that happen when it is in alignment with God's will, whether it's the turning of other people's hearts, doors opening you, getting what you need, whether it's financially or different ways, and doors closing as well is maybe a sign. It seems like for Paul that if they're being stopped continuously, maybe that's when he's like okay, this isn't.

Speaker 2:

So let me ask you, mo and I think I've seen that in my own life in ways, God's provision and other things like that Do you also think this was part of the person's question that the evil one can put up roadblocks that stop us in what we're wanting to do?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, of course, because, like I mean, and I love the story of Job right, because it speaks into this space where, like, things just don't seem fair and they don't seem right and I don't think it's of God that this man lost, you know, his children and his health and his wealth and all this stuff. And yet he sat in this space. Where did God give—he prayed, right, he spoke with God and did God give him provision? And God did. He gave him the strength to continue on, like God will take all things and use it for our good.

Speaker 1:

And so I think about Paul too, who's like this thorn in my side right, and I prayed for it to be taken away. He attributes it to Satan giving it to him, and then he says he's prayed for it to be taken away. He attributes it to Satan giving it to him, and then he says he's prayed for it to be taken away. And then God answers my grace is sufficient. And he's come to realize that actually that thorn was his gift, because it helped with his issue of pride, probably. I mean, so sometimes God uses things that are even put into, you know, aren't ideal, aren't in alignment with what God wants for us, because we don't know what it was with Paul, right? Was it like a physical ailment? Was it an addiction thing? Was it thoughts of lust, and who knows right? But whatever it was, it helped. You know. God used it for his good ultimately.

Speaker 2:

Well, and I think that's the tension, and maybe we're going to have to do some more exploring here in a future episode coming up, because that whole question of God did?

Speaker 2:

He talks about that thorn in the flesh from Satan, but then God used it for good. It doesn't mean that God caused the thorn, no, and I think that's where some of that, that God can work all things for good, even if God didn't intend it. I mean there are evil things that happen because of people's choices and people's lives that God didn't want to happen, and so I'm not of the case. And here we can go. And here's another one that everything happens for a reason. Well, some things happen because people chose to follow the evil one's ways and drove, drunk and killed someone else. Yeah, that is evil.

Speaker 2:

Now, does that mean that God's ways are fully thwarted? No, god can still bring healing and comfort, but that wasn't God's plan A. Right, no, bring healing and comfort, but that wasn't God's plan A. That's the evil. One tempted someone to do something very wrong and someone else faced a consequence, but it doesn't mean that that's the final word, that God is. The final word, and that's the hope in scripture is that God can still out of the worst things bring good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, resurrected life.

Speaker 2:

Right that to me is the worst thing is the cross.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And God brought resurrection, and so that is the hope that we have, that the worst thing that the evil one can do doesn't have the final word. God is the final word, amen to that. Yeah, well, maybe we end there and then pick up the topic more at another point.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Yeah, this has been a bit of a heavy topic, discerning whether it is Satan or God moving in the world or just kind of our thwarted thoughts at times. We'd love to hear from you guys what you think, maybe some of the things you have heard from friends or family members, or what you have thought, if you've had some trials in your life and you didn't know exactly where it came from. So we'd love for you to share that with us. And any questions you may have at unpackingtruthscom, we'd love to tackle those with you, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because we're so good at tackling yeah.

Speaker 1:

I'm still going to use. Satan made me late Next time on Unpacking Truths.

Speaker 2:

As we were thinking about this topic. I was just drawn to Philippians, chapter two, as Paul was writing to this community that he loved, and he says, therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but more so in my absence, work out your salvation. With fear and trembling that he understood salvation was a gift given from Jesus, but there's still a working out of it, in the working out of it inside of Kendall, that of the beginning, the transformation of me to be the loving person God intended to me to be at the beginning, and that working out is either going to happen here or it's going to happen at some point. Thanks for tuning in. If anything we said brought up any questions or ideas, let's keep the conversation going in the comments below or email us at unpackingtruths at locchurchcom.

Speaker 1:

And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we can continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives.

People on this episode

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Pastor Kendall Koenig

Host
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Pastor Maureen O'Connor

Host