Unpacking Truths

Infant Baptism vs Believer Baptism

• LOC Church • Season 1 • Episode 118

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✝️ Unpacking Truths: Episode 118: Infant Baptism vs Believer Baptism

Could the answer to a centuries-old debate within Christianity lie in the waters of baptism? Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo navigate through the turbulent yet spiritually enriching discourse on the significance of baptism. They dissect the origins of differing rituals such as infant baptism and believer's baptism, delving into their historical trajectories from the early church to the divisions carved out by the Protestant Reformation. With scriptural passages in hand, they scrutinize the household baptisms mentioned in Acts 16 and draw parallels with the Old Testament covenant sign of circumcision, venturing to understand the foundations of each practice and what they mean for a community's youngest members and their spiritual journey.

It's a tapestry of traditions being explored, reflecting the grand diversity within the Christian faith. As they examine the rich symbolism and the varied baptismal methods—from sprinkling to full immersion—they appreciate how every rite embodies deep theological convictions. The conversation takes listeners through personal stories of those who have experienced baptism by water and Spirit more than once, and how leadership roles in different congregations are shaped by these sacred waters. Alongside Pastor Kendall, Pastor Mo ponders the mysteries of baptism, celebrating the myriad ways it's practiced and the humility that must be embraced when acknowledging the divine elements that may just transcend human comprehension.

#Christianity #BaptismDebate #FaithJourney #InfantBaptism #BelieversBaptism #SpiritualSymbolism #ChurchTraditions #ProtestantReformation #ScripturalInsights #WaterAndSpirit

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Speaker 1:

Well, mo, and all of you out there, we are once again going to be unpacking truths out of a question that one of you, our listeners, raised, so we're enjoying that. Keep them coming. These are great questions to wrestle with and unpack together.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've loved it. It's been fun.

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Pastor Mo and we are Unpacking Truths.

Speaker 1:

Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life. Today, unpacking Truths.

Speaker 2:

Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.

Speaker 1:

today, Everyone is seeking and we're here to help you find hope and power in God's Word. So this one was a question that someone submitted is like why do some churches practice infant baptism and others only believer's baptism? And we both thought, hey, this is a great one to unpack.

Speaker 2:

Right. What do you mean by believer's baptism?

Speaker 1:

Well, great question that is, if someone, that a church that baptizes someone only after they have made a public official statement of belief, okay, and then that would be considered believer's baptism versus infant baptism, where someone could be baptized before they've been able to do that, okay, awesome. So just real quickly, historically there is and we're going to dig into this but there's ambiguity in the first 150, 200 years of the church of sort of how this was practiced, the church of sort of how this was practiced. But then, basically, from 200 AD to 1500, the time of the Protestant Reformation, infant baptism was the norm within the Christian churches around the globe. At the time of the Reformation, some Christians, those called the Anabaptists, began to raise the question that it should only be those who have come to an age of belief that are then baptized believers' baptism.

Speaker 2:

Like old enough to say hey, this is what I believe, right?

Speaker 1:

Exactly, and so that's where you started to have this split in different practices within the church. It's not that believer baptism wasn't practiced earlier than that if someone converted to Christianity as an adult, but that churches that practiced infant baptism also baptized adults if they came to faith later. So this has been, but it's become this big divide within the Christian church over the last 500 years.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, the Reformation, for sure. Well, and I mean, and the reality is, we don't know if infants were baptized in the even, you know, in the beginning of the fruition of as adults, because there wasn't, they didn't have grandparents who were Christians or parents who were Christians.

Speaker 1:

They were coming to belief through the witness of the apostles. But then where it gets interesting, and so you and I both said so, just naming this for all of you I can make a biblical case for believer's baptism and I can make a believer's a biblical case for infant baptism.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Yeah, that's the way I think. There's various churches that some believe in infant baptism. Others believe that you have to be of an age to say this is what I profess and believe in order to be baptized. Right, exactly.

Speaker 1:

So a couple of the places where you get this ambiguity is you see it in Acts, chapter 16.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, is you see?

Speaker 1:

it in Acts, chapter 16, where there are two accounts there where Lydia comes to faith in Jesus, and then you read this line in Acts, chapter 16, and then she and her household were baptized, and then, just a few verses later, paul's getting out of prison, or they were in prison, and this whole thing about the jailer and he comes to believe. And it says, at the same hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds. The jailer took Paul's, then he and his entire family were baptized without delay.

Speaker 2:

Right. And so baptism for me it's you know, I mean baptism in general, not just for me it is a sign, right, like it's a sign of a covenant, and there's a new covenant happening now between God and God's people. We are a people called to be set apart, to be holy, to look different than the world in various ways. In the old Testament we see that this sign is a circumcision. Only the guys had to deal with that one. So thanks, guys. Thanks for taking one for the team. Yeah, we did, but this would happen to the children at what day? Eight, right, yeah. And so that was the sign of which.

Speaker 2:

We are a people set apart by God and we believe in the one and only true God. Jesus is doing something new and he's saying there's a new covenant. Now, and by my blood, the whole world will come into a relationship with God, and I will, you know, you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit that will work through you, right, so we can live into who God created us to be and God's original intention for all of us, for the world, for all his children. And so baptism is a sign of the new covenant. And so to me, when I look back at some of the Old Testament stuff. Right, we see God commanded the sign of the Old Testament covenant to be given to infants in Genesis 17, 7, leviticus 12, and Joshua 5. And so it's like if it—.

Speaker 1:

Are you on that first name of friends? You just call them Josh, not Joshua.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Josh you know, josh, my buddy yeah your buddy Josh, Back in the OT Gotcha. Back in the OT. Yeah, so you know. So it's like—to me it's like it doesn't make—and, like I said, you can justify one way or the other, but it sort of doesn't make sense, Like why would God say, this sign sets you apart, so the world may know you're different, right, and would require it of infants as well, the whole household, right, and yet be like oh, but the baptism not until you're old enough to profess.

Speaker 1:

Well, I guess I'd push back on that a little bit, because I think there is a sense where that was with the covenant and the connection with circumcision. There was also initially an ethnicity there. I mean, it was for the Jewish people, so they saw themselves as they were. The almost all of the Jewish people were descendants of Abraham.

Speaker 2:

You could then but Abraham was to be the vessel out of which the whole world would come to God. That was the promise to Abraham, right? So, yeah, they were chosen. It's not just a culture or heritage, they're going to be used, the vessel used to then bring the whole world to God.

Speaker 1:

Abraham was blessed to be a blessing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, blessed to be a blessing to the nation. So it wouldn't make sense that, and when people converted who were outside of that heritage, that they would get circumcised as well, no matter what their age. So that's a bad day. You got to really be in it and serious.

Speaker 1:

You bet, because then as an adult, to go through circumcision as a male was a lot more yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you remember that. I don't know what that was like, but it doesn't sound fun either no so.

Speaker 1:

But so there was in that sense both the infant and conversions later. And so you're making that comparison, that why wouldn't there be in the new covenant community both those who are drawn in from infant because their parents are part of the community? But I think that's the key difference is not difference but distinction to be lifted up. That it's not like we, just, the Christians, go around just spraying water and baptizing people randomly.

Speaker 2:

It's because parents have said I mean, I might do that Well yeah, super soaker.

Speaker 1:

But for me it's because the parents have come to believe in Jesus, they are a part of that covenant community of the Christian family and they're saying I want that for my children too. And so they're saying I want that promise, that covenant, all of that given to my children. So that's what I think drove very quickly and the reason you see in these examples, the households that if dad came to believe in Jesus, if Lydia mom came to believe, in Jesus they wanted their whole household to share in the blessing and benefit of being in that community.

Speaker 2:

I mean that wasn't like an option. I think that's a new thing where it's like, oh, my kid doesn't want to go to church, or they don't want to do that. I mean, I don't know, like even back when I was a kid, like I don't remember things being an option like they are now it's like, oh, the kids don't want to clean their room. Well, that's too bad, life is going to give you a lot of things you don't want. So it's kind of like that idea of, oh, they choose themselves, like no, you raise them up how to be.

Speaker 2:

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And yeah, at the end of the day, they become adults, they grow into their own personhood and they make their own decisions. We're all given free will. You want the best, you hope the best, but at the end of the day, god doesn't force us into anything. And so I feel like it wouldn't make sense in my brain, like I said, to not assume that it was also infants being baptized, because even our church fathers and mothers and the church fathers are the ones we really have the evidence of who wrote about right, you named a few of them earlier Irenaeus Augustine. They wrote about infant baptism.

Speaker 1:

Origin gave a number of examples of that too, so yeah, it was very early in the Christian movement. When you say it doesn't make sense to you, I'm just wanting to name that, all of our brothers and sisters who only believe in believers baptism. Pastor Mo just said she doesn't. You don't make sense, so just say it hey listen.

Speaker 2:

I love sitting in the gray space, so I'm down for people that don't think like me. I love that. I love that. Stretch you out there. You're into believer's baptism. That's great, because the reality is, you know, god is doing things beyond our comprehension and, yes, it is a sign of who we are and what we believe. You know baptism I think we're also promised the gift of the Holy Spirit in baptism. However, there's also scriptural proof of people getting the Holy Spirit without first being baptized, right? So, at the end of the day, god's ways aren't our ways and God does whatever God wants to do, and it's always throwing our thoughts upside down right, I think, to keep us in check and to keep us from not becoming prideful and thinking we know what God is doing at the end of the day.

Speaker 1:

And here's where, in a minute, we're going to go to the dangers I think on both sides of that. But just again, while I'm teasing you a little on that, I mean I'm also out of the tradition where infant baptism is a part of that and it makes sense to me both biblically I think it's ambiguous, but I think you can make the case either way but for me, also theologically, part of what I see in Scripture is again and again and again, it's always God acting first. That God acts first in choosing Abraham.

Speaker 2:

That.

Speaker 1:

God acts first in all sorts of ways. Romans 5.8. But God proves his love for us that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Speaker 1:

So God acts first. So for me that's the beautiful sign that to me in infant baptism is that God is acting first in this child's life and saying I want a relationship with you, I long to have you in my family. Now that child can. If they grew up in a Christian family and learn about that, they can walk away from that and step away from that, and I think God doesn't force himself on us. But we're saying that God's acting first in this child's life and then our only choice is do we respond to God's love, do we respond to God's grace?

Speaker 2:

Well, and I come out of a tradition too, with infant baptism. However, in my late teens, early twenties, the father of my children was Pentecostal, came out of her tradition where they believe in believer's baptism, so I actually had to get re-baptized, so I'm like twice as holy. I just wanted to say that out there.

Speaker 1:

So if you two have been double baptized, you know you might be a little extra holy they were.

Speaker 2:

Like we're not sure the first one took, let's do her again.

Speaker 1:

Well, and you know, and Mo, as I said to you earlier, before we started this, I literally got an email today from a young man who grew up here at Light of Christ, who I had the privilege to baptize 20 years ago because I've been around here that long, and who just emailed today and he said Pastor, I just want to talk to you because I think I'm going to be baptized this Sunday. He's a part of a church. I love that. He stayed engaged in his faith and living that out. He's helping to lead worship at another church. He's planning on getting baptized there and he wanted to talk to me about the Lutheran understanding versus this. So he's been baptized, but he's now attending a church that expects for leaders or anyone involved to be baptized as an adult in a time of faith. So I'm going to have a conversation with him in the next couple of days.

Speaker 1:

I said, hey, you got to tune into the podcast, but we're not dropping it till after that happens. But I recognize that and I'm not troubled by that because I understand there are these two different traditions within the Christian movement today and if someone grew up in an infant Baptist one and then they go into the other tradition and other stream and these folks say you have to, I'm not wanting to say no, you can't ever do that, but for me there is a sense. It does feel a little bit like, well, that tradition is sort of saying this isn't right, but I think baptism is baptism and even.

Speaker 2:

I mean people. We have an amazing way of creating divides and barriers between each other. I mean even Christians who do believe in baptism and, let's say, infant. They have all these different ways of. Oh well, we still believe in emerging. You have to fully immerse the body Like. I don't know if you've ever been to a Greek Orthodox baptism, but it is one of the most traumatic. As a mom, I was freaked out. This baby is naked and the priest grabs the baby by the feet and just dunks the child in the water and you're sitting there like when are you going to pull him out? When are you going to pull him out? And then they finally pulled them out and then and then again the baby goes under and it's supposed to symbolize this idea of death right and rising a new life. But I don't know if I want such strong of a symbol when there is a infant in your hands. However, you know there were no there. Nobody was harmed. No babies were harmed in the, in the baptizing of those children, but it was powerful.

Speaker 1:

Well, and Mo, that's also. I mean, we're now just touching on sprinkling versus immersion.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we put the water on the head.

Speaker 1:

And again, historically I think a lot more water was used early on and it's as the Christian movement moved north in Europe and it got cold in the winters that they use less water. I love the image of immersion baptism because so often in Scripture when Paul talks about baptism in Romans 6, he talks about dying to live the new life with Christ. So to me immersion baptism much more represents that sense of a dying to rise.

Speaker 2:

Can we get an immersion I?

Speaker 1:

don't know, come on, come on, I mean, we just built this place and we didn't do it, but that's why we once a year, if you would like to donate to our new immersion baptism tub.

Speaker 2:

we would love, no.

Speaker 1:

See, we actually once a year we have the experience where we go out to a river, go to a lake. And we offer that experience for folks who say I want an immersion experience of baptism, so we can do that. Or if there are people who were baptized as infants but have come to an awakening in their relationship with Jesus and want to mark that and symbolize that, that we allow them to come forward into the water for a recommitment experience in that same way.

Speaker 1:

But I think I want to make sure we don't miss out on the chance that to me, sometimes within the church we've had these debates about these things and within the Christian church this has been a huge one and people saying you're wrong, you're wrong To me. This is where I'm the both and kind of guy. The truth is, I think there are dangers on either side of this.

Speaker 1:

Oh, absolutely so to me, the danger on practicing infant baptism is, to use Dietrich Bonhoeffer's words, it becomes cheap grace. Well, we dunk the kid and they're done. It's fire insurance. Well they've been washed of their sins, so they're good and we don't have to tell them about Jesus.

Speaker 2:

Or they do it for traditional purposes, right, like good, and we don't have to tell them about Jesus. Or they do it for traditional purposes, right, like when I do baptism classes, one of the first things I ask is you know so what has brought you here? I would love for you to be, you will not get in trouble. Be absolutely honest. You know, and some of them have said, because my mom and dad want me to go through this tradition, I did in a Lutheran church, or you know whatever church you're at Episcopal Catholic, whatever, and church. Or you know whatever church you're at Episcopal Catholic, whatever and they want the same for their grandchild, right? And then I'll probe more and ask different questions and I speak the truth that this is a commitment of saying you're going to make sure your child lives some this specific the way of God out in the world.

Speaker 1:

Or at least exposes them to figure out if they're going to choose to do that. Yeah, but to teach them that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, this isn't like you know. Oh, we put out cookies for Santa at Christmas, like here's this tradition thing we do but has no real deep meaning, but we just do it. That's not what this is. It's a promise to God before a community that is witnessing it.

Speaker 1:

You know, when I've taught about this in our confirmation class, here our PATH I sometimes use this analogy, this metaphor. I said that to me baptism is like giving someone a wrapped gift with all the promises of God in there. But sometimes what happens is that gift is given to this child and the parents put it up in a closet, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

As an analogy, put it up in a closet, never unwrap that gift for the child. They never talk, they never read to them Bible stories, they never take them to church, never take them to faith land. And so does the child really have the gift of those promises of God? Well, kind of, but they're wrapped, they don't really have them. Yeah, got well kind of, but they're wrapped, they don't really have them. That what we're giving them God's promises in baptism. But it's then the parents and us as a church to help this child unwrap that too, so that those gifts can be real for their own life, to understand it within their context, at their level, whatever that looks like and come to claim it for themselves.

Speaker 1:

And so to me, the great danger of infant baptism is that it becomes cheap grace. It's just this. We do this ritual but it doesn't have any meaning and this child isn't taught who Jesus is. I think the danger on believers' baptism side is a different danger. The danger there is this sense that well, because I know some churches at seven years old, if a child says I believe in Jesus, they can come forward for baptism, maybe at 12 years old or at 16 or whatever. The challenge is how do you know when you believe enough to be baptized? I mean, what's the right amount? I mean I believed at the level of seven-year-old, at a seven-year-old level, at 14,. I confirmed my faith at 14, and then I had a gob of questions at 16. So for me that's always the question If you say, well, I have to be a believer to be baptized how much of a believer, yeah, like your faith can't be shaken and you can't doubt.

Speaker 2:

or then somehow something went wrong and you need to get re-baptized, because I've known people that have gotten re--baptized again, even though they were baptized at an age.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like me, but I was an infant the first time and you know, maybe it didn't take I get it. I get it Insurance, but no, but like they've already been, they already professed. They believed in believers, baptism professed. It kind of went a different direction, or went through a period actually where they doubted is there even a God, kind of became agnostic, Maybe there's like a creator somewhere, but then came back to the faith and they thought they needed to be re-baptized, right.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so that to me, is that dangerous it's? How do you ever know? It's enough, because if it rests on my belief, I'm always can question that, we're always going to be not good enough.

Speaker 2:

We're always going to be fallen. Yeah, and even in the medieval ages they would wait to get baptized until they were dying on their deathbed, because there was a thought of cleansing. So that when they were baptized they were like, oh, now I'm clean and pure, and now when I die, I'm good, I'll go to heaven.

Speaker 1:

Hopefully I won't sin too much more on my deathbed here. Well, and that is the sort of interwoven themes around baptism. So, yeah, some people put it off.

Speaker 2:

I would love to hear what all of you think about this. If you had believer's baptism, or you're older and wanted to profess your faith and follow Jesus, what that looked like, or if you're an infant, or what you think about the fact that you were an infant, and did your parents raise you up in the church or not? Love to hear some of that, and if you'd like to submit any questions yourself. We want to be talking about this, unpacking God's truths within this and struggling with you as we struggle together to try to figure out what God is doing in the world with all of us. He loves so much, and so, unpackingtruthscom, go ahead and submit yeah, submit your questions. We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1:

Next time on Unpacking Truths.

Speaker 2:

What we put in our bodies, what we allow to be in some of our foods, is disgusting, to be honest with you, and not allowed in other countries. And so what is that doing to us? It's doing things that we don't even know about and we are finding out about now some of them, just a fraction of them. I mean. I don't mean to be like I go to the doctor and I talk about an ailment and I'm given a medication, and then I read the list of medications, what that could do, like all the other things it affects and messes with, I just think sometimes the sins, the way we even do things, is not in alignment with what God had intended.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for tuning in. If anything we said brought up any questions or ideas, let's keep the conversation going in the comments below or email us at unpackingtruths at locchurchcom.

Speaker 2:

And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we can continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives.

People on this episode

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Pastor Kendall Koenig

Host
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Pastor Maureen O'Connor

Host