Unpacking Truths
Dive deep into God's word and unpack divine truths for today's life journey. In a world where everyone is seeking, join us as we guide you to find hope and power in God's timeless wisdom. If our discussions spark questions or ideas, reach out to us at UnpackingTruths@LOCChurch.com. Don't forget to Like, Share, and Subscribe, allowing us to continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives! Hosted by Pastor Kendall Koenig and Pastor Maureen O'Connor of Light of Christ Church in Algonquin, IL.
Unpacking Truths
The Supernatural & Ghosts
✝️ Unpacking Truths: Episode 116: The Supernatural & Ghosts
Have you ever felt the chill of the unknown, or questioned if there's more to our world than what meets the eye? Pastor Mo and Pastor Kendall take listeners on a journey through the supernatural to discern the biblical truths behind ghosts and unseen forces. Their conversation traverses the spiritual realm, referencing Ephesians and Hebrews, to bring clarity to the mysterious presence of angels and demons, and the power that Jesus holds over them. They wade into the murky waters of contacting the supernatural, offering scriptural guidance to prevent falling prey to the deceptions of darkness, while also considering the intriguing concept of guardian angels.
Listeners are invited to join at the crossroads where faith collides with the desire to reach beyond the veil. As they recount Saul's plight with the spirit of Samuel in 1 Samuel 28, the discussion covers the dangers of seeking answers from the spirits of the departed and the importance of looking to God for guidance. Moving from the ethereal to the everyday, they question the intensity of worship—how it might mirror the passion seen at sports events, and what that says about personal expressions of faith. The contemplation extends to how worship can be elevated to match the fervor dedicated to other aspects of life.
#Supernatural #BiblicalTruths #SpiritualJourney #AngelsAndDemons #FaithAndMystery #GuardianAngels #SpiritualGuidance #Ephesians #FaithAndWorship #JesusPower
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Well, welcome everyone to Unpacking Truths. This is not going to be a commercial for Ghostbusters, but we are going to be talking about the supernatural and ghosts today. But, mo, before I do that, I have to ask you to move your mug a little farther onto the table. There's a guy on Sunday who said to me he's enjoyed watching the podcast, but he gets nervous because he thinks your mug's about to fall over. And I don't want him to be nervous. I want him to be able to.
Speaker 2:That's probably my big, my big head mug. This one's my. Omg, you guys, I never said that Jesus mug.
Speaker 1:That's a good mug too, just good one. He wanted to protect any mug that you have, so I just wanted to.
Speaker 2:I had to say what's up with your hacky sack? I got the weird mugs but you're bringing. Are we going to hacky?
Speaker 1:Well, I want to get back into it. I did a lot in college. I did it in Zimbabwe. I did it at the first church I served. We're going to see if my bones are still flexible enough to do it.
Speaker 2:He's bringing hacky back. Bringing hacky back, that's right.
Speaker 1:Those other churches don't know my starving children and so I just thought I wanted to bring it along. I'm just happy to have my hacky here. Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2:And I'm Pastor Mo and we are Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1:Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.
Speaker 2:today, Everyone is seeking, and we're here to help you find hope and power in God's Word. So what's our topic today?
Speaker 1:Well, it is the supernatural and ghosts, and someone had submitted this is one of our listeners submitted it and I want to start Mo by sort of distinguishing those, because I think there's a helpful differentiation there. That with the supernatural is one thing, and then when we talk about ghosts, we're going to be talking about them as sort of the deceased spirits of individuals who have lived.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so like humans who have died.
Speaker 1:Humans who have died.
Speaker 2:Thank you, that's the more down-to-earth way of saying that.
Speaker 1:So we'll talk about that second but talk about the supernatural first and I think, as both you and I have recognized, as we talked ahead of this, you know, I think, as both you and I have recognized, as we talked ahead of this, scripture in the whole biblical worldview involves a lot of talk about the supernatural.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:That there is sort of the human world that we live in, of our five senses, but there is also a world that is somehow created by God, but sort of beyond us, whether that's dimensionally or however you want to think of it, and that is by angels and demons, and that that world exists.
Speaker 2:Yeah, discerning of the spirits, things seen, things unseen, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And we were both drawn to that verse from Ephesians 6, where Paul says for we are not fighting against flesh and blood enemies, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. Paul was just acknowledging that sometimes the tensions that we're feeling or the struggles that we're facing here, some of them are just regular physical ones, but some of them are reflective of, and are engaged by, powers that are beyond us. No, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. So when it comes to the spiritual realm and that world, I think that there's lots of scripture that speaks into this. There's lots of risks with. You know just what happens with. You know we're told like Satan disguises himself as an angel of the light, right? So we open ourselves sometimes up to opportunities where you know, with different kinds of tarot cards or things like that, when people want to contact supernatural, where you know enemy can come in. You know, we're told the devil prowls around like a lion looking for someone to devour. In 1 Peter. There's also information about you know us needing to discern deceptive spirits in Timothy. And so there is this world, right, that we can't see but somehow has an effect on us here and now, and as well as angels. You know there's lots of scripture that speak into angels coming as messengers, you know, guiding on behalf of God, and so there is something happening that we definitely can't see, and you know Paul speaking into the. You know battling against principalities and things both seen and unseen.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, yeah, just following up on what you said about angels and messengers, I love the Christian group. We Are Messengers and it's almost like we are angels, because that is what the word angel means and I think we often think of it as just as people talk about, just as guardian angels, but it really is mostly through scripture. Angels are messengers, bringing message to Mary, bringing message to Joseph, bringing messages to people from God, that they're sort of God's spokespeople, god's press agents bringing the word, and so I think it's good to think that. But we are looking at that one verse. From where is it?
Speaker 1:In Hebrews 1, where that whole idea of guardian angel came from, where it says therefore, angels are only. Well, the writer of Hebrews spends the whole first chapter just talking about saying Jesus is greater than the angels. Because there must have been some controversy at that time that some people were saying, well, are the angels? Because there must have been some controversy at that time that some people were saying, well, are the angels bigger or Jesus more important? And the writer of Hebrews spent the whole first chapter saying, no, jesus is greater. And at the end of that chapter he says therefore, angels are only servants, spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation and I think that's where the guardian angel yeah, the idea that there are angels that watch over.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and so scripture speaks to that, but just one little sliver more of what angels are as messengers. But here again and maybe this is that transition, and maybe here's where we transition, mo, from talking about that and maybe there's a whole other conversation we may want to do about angels and the devil and some of that stuff but to this whole idea of ghosts and the deceased spirits, because there is this sort of and I think the connection between them is they both seem like they are beyond us, and so we sometimes mush that stuff together.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think it's important to realize that angels are a different creation than us, right Than humanity, and that's all throughout scripture. And somehow that has been crossed, like you said, this idea that when they die, oh, they've become an angel, now they're an angel. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that.
Speaker 1:When someone you love has passed, and that's not biblical at all. No, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not biblical at all. No, it's not, it's not biblical. And then I think that's where this crossover comes in, like guardian angels looking over my dead loved one, looking over me now as an angel, and a little bit of that misunderstanding on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it is. It's both. It's sort of this world that is beyond ours, be able to touch and taste and feel and sense, Um, but that is real. But there's a distinction there that I think we're just wanting to lift up in some of this.
Speaker 2:I would actually like to take an opportunity to ask you guys all out there listening, uh and or watching us, what has, what is your understanding of when someone dies, or angels, and where did you hear that from? Because I'm kind of interested. Where did that come from, that idea?
Speaker 1:Where they heard that from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or if they did yeah.
Speaker 1:So if we're starting to transition to that idea of and part of what the question that came from the listener was about, the supernatural and ghosts and haunted houses and all of those, or someone going to a place that they said was haunted, that idea that somehow the spirits of the dead are still existing around a space or connecting to us, and I know we have kind of a nuanced thoughts on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and well, and you know, I mean, the truth is, when you lose people you love, right, there are moments that are awkward, that weird things happen that seem beyond a coincidence. Right, when I remember when a good friend of mine, she lost her husband and we went to Peru. And we went to Peru really me to heal from some stuff, so we went on a spiritual retreat her to heal from her husband's passing. And we are in Peru and in a taxi and the music playing is Peruvian music, and then, out of nowhere played her and her husband's wedding song. Yeah, so I mean, and it was in English, obviously, and so that's not a that's awkward, that's not a coincidence, that's like, how do we go from Peruvian music to that song? And we were going there with the intention for her to heal from this pain, and so there are things that happen which make us question what's going on here and have those who've passed on are they communicating with us? And I think it's a very real thing that people often talk about experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know it's funny. I didn't think of this, but just what you were describing there reminded me of when I just recently watched the movie Interstellar again. And I didn't think I had watched it. And then by the end I go no, I have seen it, but it was long enough ago. I don't remember it.
Speaker 2:What's it about? Tell our listeners, oh, it's a whole science.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's about Tell our, tell our listeners oh it's a whole science.
Speaker 2:Oh, I can't.
Speaker 1:I don't want to blow it for all of you who haven't seen it, but it's a fascinating movie, a Christopher Nolan movie, but it's where this guy who has essentially died is then pulling the strings and impacting the world that existed before and it's playing with all these science fiction sort of themes. And but he was saying it wasn't sort of beyond time, but it was like humans, I mean.
Speaker 2:Was he doing it, and then he was like, oops, that was a bad decision. Let me go back.
Speaker 1:Well, kind of, there was a little bit of like trying to give one message to his daughter and then a different message to his daughter, and so it's fascinating thing. But I have, mo heard plenty of people who have described stories or experiences like that to me too, and I've had some experiences that have made me go. Hmm, they haven't been as dramatic as that, but I've always been reluctant to or resistant to, I don't know, fully embracing or maybe it should be focusing on that, because there's so much in the Old Testament that speaks of not trying to access the spirits of those who have died, and there are just multiple scriptures around that where you have and yet this has been something that continues right From the time of antiquity.
Speaker 2:We see you're about to speak into that, but even now, like I know people who've like lost people and gone to medians and gone to psychics to like try to connect with them.
Speaker 1:So yeah, but you were saying what is the yeah, well, I mean, scripture seems very clear in Leviticus and Deuteronomy of saying you know Leviticus 19, 31, do not defile yourselves by turning to mediums or to those who consult the spirits of the dead. I am the Lord, your God. And in Deuteronomy, 18, god is saying you know a number of things like don't do this, don't sacrifice your child to this other God. But then he goes on, he says and do not let your people practice fortune telling or use sorcery or interpret omens or engage in witchcraft or cast spells or function as mediums or psychics or call forth the spirits of the dead.
Speaker 1:And he says mediums or psychics or call forth the spirits of the dead. Yeah, and he says it is because the other nations have done these detestable things that the Lord, god, will drive them out ahead of you. God is saying other people do that, so it's not. Scripture isn't saying that it's not possible to do it, but says don't do it. And when Saul actually does it, in that famous account in 1 Samuel 28, where his main prophet, his connection to God, was.
Speaker 1:Samuel. Samuel had died, and so he seeks out a medium. He's first banished all the mediums, but then, he seeks out one.
Speaker 2:Well, because didn't he go to the Lord first? And the Lord was taking too long.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, the Lord was not giving an answer.
Speaker 2:You're a little too long, you know I got to go to the dead now.
Speaker 1:Well, that's exactly what it was, mo, that God was not giving him an answer. And so then he sought this medium to go seek Samuel, the prophet of God. And Samuel kind of goes like why are you bothering me? But then gives him a word of judgment from God saying you're going to die in this battle and your, your family's going to be wiped out and David's going to take over.
Speaker 2:Aren't you glad you contacted?
Speaker 1:me. Yeah, exactly, great news, great news, yeah, this is why you don't contact the dead guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Bad news to come, Exactly.
Speaker 1:Just read no 1, samuel 28,. You don't want to do it? No, so for me, from a biblical worldview, it isn't saying that it's impossible to do that, it's just saying that we are not to do that.
Speaker 2:Well, and there's a bigger reason, I think, here. I think the bigger underlying reason is that we are to be a people set apart, we are to be holy, we are to look different. I love in Deuteronomy 18, where it says don't do these things right, because the other nations have done these detestable things. The other nations have looked elsewhere, other than the creator of the universe and all things, for guidance, for knowledge, for wisdom. You're looking to the things that have been created for answers rather than looking to the creator.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's great.
Speaker 2:And so that's the big, I think, overall Archine theme here, and it's disrespectful and it's unwise and it's silly, and God's like what? And it's, yeah, God is just like. I want you to look different, and so we'll look the same as everyone else if we are not waiting patiently on the Lord. Right, we are people that have such faith and strength by the power of the Holy Spirit in us to be able to do things that are very, you know, beyond humanity. Right, we're not a patient people that can wait, you know, years and years and years for things while we sit in hardship or suffering without something bigger than ourselves. And so that's why God's empowered us with that to be a people that look different and trust God in what's going on.
Speaker 1:So, because I think that is the reason oftentimes why people seek, that is, they're trying to seek direction for their lives and they're going like, well, I'm going to talk to great Uncle Harry because he seemed to be a wise guy when he was around, but God's saying, no, go to me, don't go to Uncle Harry.
Speaker 2:Well, the chances are. Are you even going to get Uncle Harry right? Because Scripture says you know, in 2 Corinthians Satan disguises himself as an angel of the light. We know from you know Jesus being in the wilderness being tempted, that Satan knows Scripture. You know he is the father of lies, we're told in Scripture, scripture.
Speaker 2:So I can't tell you how many stories I've heard from different online and stuff, just of people who were medians or who were psychics and then they changed, they became Christians. But they said that there were spirits guiding them with different things. But now they know they weren't spirits that were of God, that they were of something else, of Satan, because they would start out always good. It seems to be a weird pattern and people can check it out online. You guys could check it out online, hearing different stories of those who were maybe psychics or medians who became Christians. But they said they start out guiding them really well and in truth and then, before they know it, they have them going in these paths or these directions that are not good for them, that weren't the right decision to make, that wasn't the right job to take, that they shouldn't have stayed in that relationship, like all these things were then misleading.
Speaker 1:And misleading.
Speaker 2:And so I think maybe that could be also part of why God so desperately doesn't want his children, who he loves, to be seeking.
Speaker 1:To be misled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to be misled Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know it is fascinating. I spent some time in preparing for this and stumbled upon this whole area in Scripture that I've always wrestled with or been unclear on, because while God's very clear in saying don't do that, there are a number of times where God seems to be fine with casting sacred lots. Oh, I love that, yeah, and I mean it's not just an Old.
Speaker 2:Testament thing. It's like a rolling of the dice. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Like even when they had to replace Judas, and they had. So the 11 disciples were still there and they nominated two individuals and they had to decide which of these to choose. They cast lots. The disciples cast lots and said okay, it will be Matthias who will be there. Who will be there?
Speaker 2:And we're not quite sure for those who are listening at Casting Lots. We're not quite sure if it's like tossing of the bones and reading the bones or like look at the tea leaves, like we're not sure what exactly, but it looks like it's like dice, but it seemed to give a clear sort of this and A or B, yeah.
Speaker 1:An A or B option.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that there was a way that they were trusting. We're trusting that somehow. When we can't discern, it's down to two and we can't discern. We're going to let God, through this what seems like an act of chance, guide things.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've played Bible roulette before, which may be a little bit like casting of the lots, where I've been like, okay, god, give me an answer. And like flipped open the Bible and been like, oh, this, and I, honestly, a lot of times it's pretty good Like it gave me what I needed, except for one time it was talking about like what an adulterous nation Jerusalem was and I was like, oh, you know what, I'm going to do this again. Take two, try a different verse Shut the Bible, let's try.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I think it does come back to that sense of as human beings, we are confronted with so many decisions and things like oh, do I take this path or this path? And even when we're wanting to do the right thing, sometimes we have to ask is it the right thing for me, or is it the right thing that God wants, or is it just what's going to work best for me? And I think God just keeps saying you know, go back to Scripture, Trust me. If you're not hearing a clear message, then maybe I'm okay with you choosing either one, but it's also about community too.
Speaker 2:That's where we so desperately need community, and Paul talks about discerning of the spirits in community with others, like we need each other to be processing through this stuff. We're created to be the body right where God's wisdom is revealed in and through all of us together as one, and so I think that's so important. We're not meant to be alone or to have to reach out to those who are dead.
Speaker 1:Well. But the other part about community is you love to lift up Mo, and I think it's so wise that we are part of the communion of saints. We are still in communion with those who have gone before us, and so we're not supposed to seek them out, but they may seek us out in ways and, as Hebrews so powerfully says, they are cheering us on in the walk of faith. And so they're there. They're cheering us on, but we're not supposed to access them. We're supposed to go to Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and praying for us. Right In Revelations 5, we hear how those who've gone before us, our elders, the fellow believers, are praying for us. How powerful is that that? We know that prayer is powerful and those with God are cheering us on and praying for us in powerful ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good stuff. I don't know if we fully answered the question that was asked of us, but we talked around it at least, so tried to engage it.
Speaker 2:Hopefully unpacking some truths.
Speaker 1:Hopefully unpacking some of it Next time. On Unpacking Truths, we make things that become idols in our lives, absolutely. And he says that you know and there's a second commandment against that that it's about what are the priorities, and it's not that we can't do both. Yeah, but how do we lose sight of one when we throw all of ourselves into something else?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. A friend of mine had someone come in from Africa. He took him to church, but he also took him to a sporting event, like different things, and he likened them both almost to this space of worship. He's like it was really interesting how people at this event the sport event they cheered and they got, they wanted to get there early. You know, they want all this stuff and when it came to church it was kind of like a dragging. And then when it's, you know, before it's even over, people are like looking at their watches and I've gone to a couple of baseball games.
Speaker 2:So, but it is this space of like. Are we giving our whole selves? Are we glorifying God with the time we have and in the moments we have? Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 1:If anything we said brought up any questions or ideas, let's keep the conversation going in the comments below or email us at unpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2:And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we can continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives.
