What the Bible Really Says About Women in Church Leadership

✝️ Unpacking Truths: Episode 013: What the Bible Really Says About Women in Church Leadership

📝 Join us on this enlightening episode of "Unpacking Truths" where we delve into a thought-provoking question sent in by one of our listeners: "What does the Bible say about women in leadership roles in the church?" Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo take on this controversial topic with enthusiasm and insight.

In this engaging conversation, we explore the biblical passages often cited in discussions about women's roles in the church, examining them within their historical and cultural contexts. From the leadership of women in the Old Testament to Paul's teachings in the New Testament, we dissect key verses and shed light on their deeper meanings.

With candor and humor, Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo share personal anecdotes, theological insights, and historical perspectives, challenging traditional interpretations and inviting listeners to reconsider long-held beliefs. From the stories of Deborah and Priscilla to Paul's instructions in Corinthians and Timothy, we unravel the complexities surrounding women's participation in church leadership.

Discover how cultural norms, historical context, and theological interpretations have shaped our understanding of women's roles in the church throughout history. Gain a deeper appreciation for the diverse contributions of women in spreading the gospel and shaping Christian communities.                                                 

Whether you're a seasoned theologian or simply curious about this contentious issue, this episode offers valuable insights and encourages respectful dialogue. Join us as we unpack the truths of God's Word and explore what it truly says about women in church leadership.

🔍 Key Topics Discussed:

• Biblical examples of women in leadership roles
• Paul's teachings on women's behavior in church settings
• Cultural and historical context of biblical passages
• The evolving role of women in church history
• Reexamining traditional interpretations through a modern lens

🎧 Listen to the full episode for an enlightening discussion on this important topic!

#WomenInLeadership #BiblicalTruths #ChurchLeadership #FaithJourney #BiblicalPerspectives #GenderEquality #ChristianPodcast #UnpackingTruths #SpiritualInsights #ChristianWomen #BibleStudy #TheologicalReflection #ReligiousDebate #CulturalContext #EmpoweringWomen #ChristianCommunity #FeminineWisdom #ChurchHistory #ControversialTopics #ProgressiveChristianity

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Transcript

0:00

well Mo I'm excited about this topic cause this is the first one that is coming from one of our listeners that's sending the question saying what does the Bible say about women in leadership in the church and so we get done pack that today all right I you know I'm a little shocked that they allow women to leave the church well why would crazy this is insane crazy concept but they want us to talk about it so let's talk about it God doesn't work through women silly hi I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Moe and we are unpacking truths where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life today everyone is seeking and we are here to help you find hope and power in God's Word so you know to that point at the beginning clearly in Scripture and this has been controversy it still is this is one of the key dividing places in the Christian church today absolutely you know honestly so like when when I was in underground and we had to take a theology course and the professor was also a pastor and he said at the end of it you're called to be a pastor and I was like you've lost your mind right I was like oh that's so cute no you don't know me but you know I went to my family which is predominantly Irish Catholic and they were so they were genuinely scared they were like oh God doesn't know no that's not okay this isn't okay interesting yeah they were genuinely scared that like for my future in in death like do you go to like I'll go to hell I might go to hell if I live into this like cause God doesn't want women there and my sister who's an even became an evangelical because of her husband Pentecostal not to say anything about Pentecostals love y'all out there but um their church and their beliefs right she wrote me a long letter saying that she was afraid because when women are in the church that Satan uses them to steal the money yeah I was like wow this is really specific like yeah like it was it was a whole bunch of stuff in there okay but just that like God would never call women there to be subservient the man the man is the head of the woman type of thing and you know God just doesn't use women in those ways and uh you know so that LED me on a journey you know in my relationship with god and and and discovering and researching through history and all that good stuff but as a man I'm curious what is your perspective been in this and what is your journey kind of looked like my journey um I when I was in high school which is just shortly after the last Dinosaur died out according to my kids the t Rex died yeah it was just they just ended and then Kendall era started um but it was just when uh I grew up in a church where I had never seen uh a woman in pastoral leadership yeah and I was uh grown up in the church I was taking faith seriously I dug into scripture and I'd run into these verses that we're gonna take a look at that talked about uh where Paul says women should stay silent and some of those things and I remember turning I was like coming home from youth retreat and turned to the associate pastor who was on the retreat and I said I I I just heard that that they're letting women be pastors in the church but how did they do that because I know what these verses in scripture say so how can they do that and so here I am like a 16 or 17 year old guy asking this of male pastor and goes well he said Kendall he goes I look at it this way he said when god raised Jesus from the dead on Easter Sunday morning the first people who proclaim the gospel news who proclaim the good news yeah were the women at the tomb amen to that and what he said to him is he goes Kendall if it was good enough for god to use women to be the first preachers maybe it should be okay today and that was the break that was the breakthrough moment for me as a 16 or 17 year old I go I go that makes sense uh I mean because I knew these other scriptures but I had seen what got it done so that's why from that point on not like I was opposed to it before but I was just I never experienced it and I and so that was sort of the breakthrough moment and so I so appreciated that that perspective but let's let's begin and let's name so one of the places we wanted to start is just name the clearly in scripture um there are examples of women who are in leadership absolutely so um I mean one obviously in the Old Testament Debra the judge um powerful woman and she had to take over leadership because the the guy well the and she LED the army but there was a guy who she said shouldn't he didn't and she goes well then I got a lead and and God empowered her to lead and get out the way I'm gonna step up Brock that's right that's right and so she did that and so there I mean there's one example but there are lots of other ones oh yeah no I mean well the irony in that women shouldn't teach is that you know Paul speaks into and and wanted right Priscilla to teach Apollos and he was known as one of the great teachers himself right in Act 18 and so if if women were supposed to be teaching then why would you know Paul affirm and and be happy and speak into the fact that Priscilla is teaching someone else a male you bet another one from Paul as well because we're gonna get to some of Paul's when he was writing to the church at Philippi um he writes where do I have it um um Uodia uh yeah Uodia and city and he basically says these women who are leaders among you and Co and leaders with me yeah and now he's telling them they have to disagree cause there was some disagreement between them but he fully affirms them as leaders alongside himself so Paul yeah acknowledge women is leaders in those settings even though he said these other things in other places and Roman 16 Phoebe's talked about and she worked in the church um there's also in Roman 16 he talks about Mary and Trifina and uh trifosa all those fun names and they're the lord's workers with alongside him and in Roman 16 we also have we have the whole scope of women teaching and preaching and even praying and becoming the role of Deacon right and so that's really powerful too and so we see women doing these things that later on in history somehow these these roles had been kind of taken from them well but not even that much later in history because Paul says some of those words so why don't we take a look at some of what Paul so said um the and there are a couple of places um uh in uh 1st Corinthians what is it uh 14 okay um uh where Paul says women should be silent during church meetings it is not proper for them to speak they should be submissive just as the law says they have any questions they should ask their husbands at home for this improper for women to speak in church meetings oh man oh boy yep we're going there Mo we're going there so so I mean that was one and well I would like to speak a little bit into the you know I think we have these scriptures and then we don't look at the context and we don't look at the history so I I'd love to speak into this a little bit good so within the Corinthian culture women were not even supposed to address men in public let alone talk to them they don't touch they don't address one another it's almost like you don't even acknowledge that the other exists so that was a normal part of culture um women women at during this time were also so that's the culture standard but then women were questioning men while they were speaking and teaching during worship so here they they haven't had this role before this ability to be able to ask questions or have a voice they couldn't even interact with a man right in public and now they have this new found freedom in Christ and they're able to talk and ask questions here's another layer men were always educated and given that kind of rabidic you know teaching and schooling and training women were not okay so here they are in the middle of worship things being taught and and among the people and there are these women that have never been exposed to this and their new found freedom and they're standing up and asking all these questions that maybe would otherwise seem destructive and foolish and like okay okay think about it like if we were preaching and someone's like wait wait wait who's Jesus who's Jesus or are you sure he went there because I heard he went you know like all these things that are disrupting the message and the point and the teaching so really that's what Paul is speaking into so I think it's important to understand that as well well it's it's fascinating that you brought that up because the verse right before what I read verse 13 it says for god is not a god of disorder but of peace as in all the meetings of God's holy people so that was a he was talking about how to create order and worship yes and so interesting insight that you bring from the culture and from that women suddenly freed to start asking their questions and Paul saying hey but do it in this setting so that's what you're absolutely and you know and this is this is also a teaching where Paul isn't isn't um attributing it to Jesus and there are things he does attribute to Jesus he says the Lord says this is not one of those you know this is something this is his personal opinion based off of what is going on within this context within this culture and some of the disruptions that are happening during worship and so and and Paul does cite the commands of the lords

and of the Lord and First Corinthians 7: 9:44

25

9: 9:48

11 all these other areas um but he he doesn't this he's saying is his so I don't think Paul ever meant for this to be a universal principal he meant for it to be a advice within that context well in that really ties into some language I used and it's four years ago now in a sermon series uh where uh before you got the light of Christ actually some stuff happened at L O C before you got there more hard to believe but oh not what yeah um but it was a sermon entitled a series entitled word of God Speak in January of 2020 yeah and just before the whole world shut down um but part of what I lifted up is this theme and this isn't from me but that parts of scripture are clearly timeless yeah but there are other parts of scriptures that seem time bound to that setting yes and and that's the piece that Christians we need to discern that now some people like to say it's all God's word and it is all God's word but some of it has a time bound character and some has a timeless yes and ironically within some of these which have held women in a subordinate position have been ones where we're like oh we're taking this sentence but not the other one like the like Corinthians 11 about wearing women having to wear head coverings yes head coverings and that yes well exactly and so and if we don't we get our hair cut off ladies so yeah yeah put the head cover on 1st Corinthians 11 if you're wanting to yeah it says cut off or off with the hair off with the hair but but that to me is exactly the point that some churches that say well we're um that whole they wanna say no we gotta take all of scripture seriously and I'm saying yes but some parts of it are time bound and you do that because you're not I mean now men and I namish churches still require women to wear head covering but all the rest of the evangelical world does not do that and and in other areas yeah and so why do you say that has to be time bomb and Catholics did it Catholics did it for a while cause my grandmother has all these pictures when she was younger yeah they'd put like doyleys on their heads or something they did yeah something yeah and my mom when she was young she had to do that too so somewhere along the line it like fell off but I mean because they initially were holding it as timeless and then they got to the point of going no that was time bound for that culture yes and and that's where I think taking clearly Paul's words where he said in Christ there's neither June nor Greek slave nor free male nor female yes that was the timeless principle that in Christ with those social constructs are no longer fundamental that Christ breaks through all of them no longer us and them right we're all free in Christ at the foot of the cross the ground is level and are we living in that or we're not yeah like if if it causes you to be on equal ground with me and I want power over you then no take back yeah you know let me interpret this a little differently but as we when we're talking about these ones where that have often held women down within leadership and positions in the church and then also up we're gonna listen to this one but not that one it's first Timothy as well first Timothy 2 um where I love when they say women are to be modest in their appearance they should wear decent and appropriate clothing that does not draw attention to themselves they should not fix their hair and oh oh they should not draw attention to the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes and so ladies put your pearls away you are distracting and it's just like you know why okay so we can braid our hair now and put on our pearls and that's okay right but we're some of the I don't know it's and the verse before that right or the I'm sorry a few verses later um it says women should learn quietly and submissively I do not I do not let women teach men or have authority over them let them listen quietly so first Timothy says this but I he says I do not I do not let women yes he doesn't say the Lord says do not let women he says I do not thank you Timothy thank you for shutting the mouth of lots of women that probably have a lot of good stuff to say that was Paul to Timothy that wasn't oh yeah that's right Paul to Timothy so wrong so Paul I'm sorry Paul was saying that though yeah and exactly moan and I think you know one of our uh friends had pointed out to us before this he said he goes well I just saw a podcast where a guy spent four hours yeah um uh on a podcast saying everything that women can do and can't do within the church and and I'm just like I really wish we were moving beyond that in the Christian Church and coming to recognize the full giftedness of all of God's people that there is a there are too many timeless scriptures that point to I mean even in acts where I have that one where uh it at Pentecost where it says in in those days you know this is the prophet Joel being quoted by Peter and and uh on Pentecost in those days I will pour out my speed spirit even on my servants men and women alike yeah and they will prophesy absolutely that we have the church has been diminished because we have not had now it's not that women haven't LED to the last 2,000 years up until when they were ordained I mean women have given such leadership within the church but full leadership within the church is just within really the last half century and not universally well but ironically women had a lot of leadership and they were teaching preaching baptizing doing leading communion there's tons of historical evidence of all this and and I think the it was it was literally uh Pope Innocent the third that had a huge problem with women and when that time came things started to change the church Father started to make some some big decisions taking certain um women were ordained alongside men in different positions and roles and some even using the word priest right and so women were doing all these things and he was bothered by that and so um those some of those abilities were taken away and they were theological you know ideas created around why women should no longer be able to do this or that but I think when it comes to first Timothy and saying women should learn quietly and submissively I do not let women teach men or have authority over them once again we need to look at what is the historical context what is happening right now and let's see if this makes sense like Paul I don't like everything you say but I don't think you're that bad of a guy so I feel like Paul's probably coming out of something you know a situation and he is once again new found freedom for women right they are able to have a voice they are able to learn about things they were never able to prior um also during this time in the Ephesian Church there was false teaching going around and the women were kind of prey to this false teaching they were so excited to learn that they were kind of the one sucking up anything and everything going on in the wider culture so then also when they're speaking up and saying things in the context of worship and teaching they're saying things that are way off right cause they didn't have that upbringing in that privilege of being able to learn when they were young right and so they were being they were holding these false teachings and that was another reason probably why he's kind of guiding them ask your husbands like talk to them first before you open your mouth and say this stuff like okay you know ask if this seems like it's an alignment with who we know ourselves to be as the people of God um also what was going on is there some of the false teachings were holding Eve um over Adam right that Eve was Eve enlightened Adam with her teachings so within this culture in Ephesus women were held to be more divine they were held um closer to god in some ways and so Paul could easily been doing this as like a counterbalance kind of to kind of help I haven't studied that part that's well yeah I'm a woman that that whose family was afraid I might go to hell so I did lots of research so also I might keep it real in Ephesus there was a goddess Artemis um she was held incredibly high and that was so that was this idea that women were more divine they were closer to God and then now there is this false teaching that Eve really bestowed all this wisdom upon Adam and so and there's also lots of other things like the linguistic study of the word eda right it connects to definitive so just so this actually a better translation many scholars think is I do not permit a woman to teach in a domineering manner and so there's just lots of layers to this and when we look at the outside culture that women were being held higher than men then there's all these women pray to these false teachings then they're saying this stuff in the middle of other people teaching it's like it makes sense why Paul might have been like can you can you not talk right now yeah can you can you touch me with your hobby first yeah like you know wrestle with it at home with boo boo and then come to the worship center and and kind of like you know then have your your comments or questions or the that's fascinating and I think that in depth study of the cultural context helps us to make sense of that and why something might have made sense in that time bound moment absolutely but it's not timeless for all time yeah you know the other thing I don't know this is a little bit of a dangerous zone that I want to go to now danger zone well danger zone well just because of how people might perceive this but I do I I believe God is trying to shape the world through scripture and in shape it absolutely but I also think God works out in the world as well and I think there are times when and here's where I think Christians need to humble themselves cause sometimes we get to hear you well we've got the word of God we know who God is and we're gonna teach the world that I think that there are plenty of examples tragically where the culture is had to teach the church things yeah that um untragically it was not universally the Christian church that moved the end of slavery right that there were a whole lot of secular folks who are pushing that way some Christians but a whole lot of Christians were like slavery is just fine cause the Bible talked about slavery yeah there's no one today in the US well there might be some but the 98% of Christians would not say slavery is okay right um but we had to be brought to that place because scripture talked about it and so culture had to push us there to me around some of the issues with women in leadership at the same some of culture had to lead us and then we had to look back and go oh maybe we didn't understand these scriptures quite correctly well and it but here's the thing it's like anyone I'm I'm I think like do your history like do your work like if you go back and you look at this stuff you see that women were doing everything men were doing and affirmed in it in scripture right and then there came a point in history when that was taken away and so why are you know we don't want to look at that we just want to read things literally and not look at the bigger picture or jump 2,000 years back because some of that yeah and what because it does something for you what does it do for me if I allowed the Bible to justify slavery then I get free labor and I'm able to you know produce more and have more for me it's all about me you know what I mean rather than how am I caring for others and is this just and is this right and so if we really sit with God in this or look at scripture and and do a deeper dive I can't fathom how anyone doesn't come to the conclusion that God has been using women right alongside men since the beginning of creation and I I just would I mean I wanna give a shout out to to women in the context of Jesus so okay you had said before that um the first apostle was a woman right and Jesus said go and tell the good news to to the other disa go and tell the disciples I've risen that's the angels message to them and then Jesus as well absolutely and one of the one of the points one of the big pushbacks that I heard early on to was well if if god wanted women to lead then they would have had 12 disciples and one would have been a woman but that would have actually gone against the symbol that Jesus was really trying to portray here which was a unifying of all the nations of Israel right um but Jesus talks publicly to Samaritan woman that is a huge no no he takes no notice in the impurity of the bleeding woman who he heals he pardons a woman of her adultery and holds the man accountable as well I mean there's it took women to bankroll Jesus's mission absolutely it was all women who financially supported Jesus and so I don't know ladies I just wanna give a shout out God birthed himself through us Jesus called us to be the first to open our mouths and speak about the good news and how Jesus has set us free and how good life can be in a relationship with God and living into that courageously you know when I hang on this topic then I should let you have the last words and you just did that no I think that's right thank you Kendall he's the best and I when I started this job I didn't have a list of what I can and can't do as a woman so I really appreciate that you're the best man to work alongside ever if this topic stirred up something in you and you wanna comment you feel free to do that below obviously with kindness and Grace uh but you can push back or if you wanna open a dialogue and get some more information we've got resources for that again email unpackingtruths.com and we'll get back with you and let's start a conversation next time on unpackingtruths I decided I wanted to smoke a pork shoulder well I decided a few days ago but I ran into this problem of timing so time timing yeah and uh because I was gonna have to get up in the middle of the night for it to be ready for dinner tonight and then I stumbled upon this key idea that I'm sharing with all of you uh folks who like to smoke meat I had a 9 pound pork shoulder and it was gonna take me way too long to smoke it here's the trick I cut it in half and now it becomes two four and a/2 pound pork shoulders and it'll go a lot quicker put it on at breakfast this morning be ready for dinner tonight there's your tip for the day alright we are all blessed because of that thank you so much of course of course you are you'll be sharing that right well of course stop on over of course this happened honey he invited me ha ha thanks for tuning in if anything we said brought up any questions or ideas let's keep the conversation going in the comments below or email us at unpacking truths at loc church.com and don't forget to like share and subscribe so we can continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives