Unpacking Truths

What Will Heaven Be Like?

• LOC Church • Season 1 • Episode 105

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✝️ Unpacking Truths: Episode 105: What Will Heaven Be Like?

Welcome to another enlightening episode of "Unpacking Truths." In this session, Pastors Kendall and Mo delve deep into the mysterious realm of heaven, exploring various perspectives and referencing scriptures like 1 Corinthians 15. Join the thought-provoking conversation as they speculate on the nature of the afterlife, discussing topics such as the transformation of our bodies, the idea of purgatory, and the continuous growth and exploration in the presence of God.

🌌✨ Get ready for a captivating journey as the pastors share insights, reflections, and personal interpretations on the concept of heaven. Whether you're seeking answers or simply curious about what lies beyond, this episode provides a nuanced exploration of the topic.

📖 Scripture references, personal anecdotes, and theological reflections are seamlessly woven together, creating a tapestry of ideas that will leave you pondering the mysteries of heaven. Don't miss this engaging discussion on "What Will Heaven Be Like."

🔍 Explore the depths of spiritual inquiry with Pastors Kendall and Mo, as they navigate the complexities of the afterlife and uncover truths that transcend our understanding. Subscribe, like, and share to keep unpacking God's truths for your life.

🌟 Dive into the podcast now and join the conversation. What are your thoughts on heaven? Share in the comments below or reach out via email at unpackingtruths@locchurch.com.

#HeavenlyReflections #UnpackingTruths #AfterlifeJourney #InGodsPresence #WhatWillHeavenBeLike #PodcastDiscussion 🎙️

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today we're talking about what is heaven like we cover the waterfront from purgatory to CS Lewis who knows what all to Ryan Reynolds oh Ryan Reynolds and ice cream join us and learn more hi I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Mo and we are unpacking truths where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life today everyone is seeking and we are here to help you find hope and power in God's Word alright so today we're gonna be talking about how we understand heaven super light topic right alright so when you think of heaven like what naturally comes to mind oh oh you're asking me yeah yeah oh okay so you have that huge dogmatic book in front of you yes I do like you know I I I well I I I did some more reading mom you know this is one of these topics um I think I wanna start with um oh no I was going fun man like oh what comes to yeah what comes to mind when you think of it like what's heaven gonna be like oh it is going to be look like Canada from a boat fishing okay that sounds like my purgatory but you know like my heaven sister my heaven that's awesome mine has Ryan Reynolds and um every variety of ice cream so we're close yeah yeah so similar so the you know more sorry now I'll go serious because I love the laugh but then I go when I have a topic like this the truth is I feel somewhat overwhelmed by let me just name that but I heard this quote and I won't quote it exactly but it's essentially this metaphor that Martin Luther lifted up that he said what we understand about the life to come yeah is what a baby in the womb understands about life in this world that we have not yet been born into that world so it's not simply speculation it's just sort of beyond imagination yeah and so scripture gives us hints and points and directions and and gives images and and symbols but we don't get this simple timeline um or this you know uh uh blueprint right shall we say right and so in in the danger is is that when scripture does use some of its symbolic language sometimes people have used it as blueprint yeah when it wasn't intended as that um but that there's a danger in what I was just saying is it sounds like well then we can't know anything about it and and that's not what I'm saying because I do believe the core conviction is that what scripture is revealed with Jesus is revealed is that we have a hope beyond this life that is beyond what we can imagine and that hope in that conviction can sustain us even as we're wrestling through trying to understand the details or trying to even imagine what that's like so I wanna start with that hope and with that hope and then let's go into the scripture and the speculation in between I like it I like it's like a hope sandwich like hope that will make you feel hopeless then well maybe not hopeless but just confused just confused just we'll go around about welcome to studying theology confused alright so what are some um some areas that uh like so are we just going into the ground like what do you yeah um well no that wasn't yeah answering the question yeah no but I mean I think you go to that question I had a young woman in her 20s asked me that in the first church that I served that was back when I was in my young 20s too in my 20s and her father had died and um she said um pastor I just I need to know I don't understand is my dad just dead in the ground or is he with in heaven now yeah but what is it and um I remember turning to Beth and saying Beth um I hear scripture pointing in two directions I hear so much of scripture speaking of the resurrection at the end of time when all will be raised and I said and um that as if there's a delay and yet then I also hear Jesus on the cross saying to the thief today you will be with me in Paradise right so to me scripture points in two directions where time gets mushy and gets confusing and how we understand that right um and fortunately that was enough for her to hear but in either way there was the hope of we are in God's presence in in God's care yeah eternally um how that plays out on a timeline and I'll give you my speculation but we can talk about more but there is I feel scripture pointing in two directions in that yeah absolutely I think you know when you talked about this young girl I think about all the different funerals I've done right and then you're going through that scripture and like John 14 is a big one where Jesus says you know I go ahead of you to prepare a room and you will always be with me and there's always you you know there's always there's enough room for everyone type of thing and so that I find myself asking okay so you know it says verb right here John 14 1 3 I'm going to prepare a place for you when everything is ready I will come to get you so that you will always be with me where I am and so then I think okay when it when is this time right is it when I go is that the time that I come and and I think yes because what you just mentioned you know with Jesus on the the cross and he says today today you will be with me in Paradise and then I go on to think okay so where is Jesus cause he says you will be with me where I am and there's so much scripture that I came across Hebrews 1 3 2 4 Hebrews 12

2 Peter 3:

22

Acts 22:

33 7 55 yeah yeah no no they all say the same thing which is Jesus in heaven is at the right hand of the father right this is which out of our Creed is common so if Jesus is at the right hand this is where he's at and the father I'm is in heaven right and so Jesus is in heaven and then today you will be with me in paradise and then I'm going ahead to make a room I can't help but think that we go right where God is okay yes yes and yeah it talks about in many other scriptures um uh now if Christ is proclaimed as I mean first Corinthians 15 now Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead so they're talking about resurrection of the dead coming in the future down the road not in this immediate so is it that I'm going to heaven right now or is it that I will be resurrected at the end of time right and and and that's that's where some of the attention is so what and what we're talking about here Moe is that great word that we loved its seminary eschatology and how will things come at the escatine at the end right and I was just looking in this in here's where just to give everyone a taste of the fun that we had in seminary yeah tell him what you're reading yeah yeah well here was just two sentences um and uh in Paul's argument with the Gnostics in Corinth he emphasized the proleptic and preliminate and preliminary eschatological eschatological character of Christian existence the interim is not yet the time of fulfillment and then it goes on from there right right and you know what and in Corinthians there's tons of scripture too right well so you actually understood what I just read okay right no I mean I'm gonna pretend right now um speaking into there seems to be an order to this right like something is happening here um

first Corinthians 15:

23 but there is an order to this resurrection yes Christ was raised at the first of the harvest then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back goes on 2nd Corinthians 5 8 yes we are fully confident and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies for then we will be at home with the Lord right so there's this idea of a separation of body and soul

um first Corinthians 15:

42 our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die but they will be raised to live forever and so there's this idea of earthly body in the ground um and our soul leaving going somewhere right at this moment where to be with Jesus where's Jesus with the father at the right hand of the father all that scripture showing that um but also their scripture showing that we're raised not in our old bodies but new ones so I'm kind of like do we get to choose like what kind of body like what is like what is this new body look like like you know

in 1st Corinthians 15:

52 54 it goes on to say Paul says these dying bodies cannot cannot inherit what will last forever yes so he talks about them not when when Jesus comes again and were raised from you know the grave right there's a new kind of body that we have um what that looks like I'm not quite sure cause beauty is very different like when when scars we do so much to get rid of our scars right like there's lasers and there's surgeries and there's creams we spent all this ridiculous amount of money and yet Christ rose with his scars so I don't think we have any idea what our new bodies will look like either well to that point I mean part of it it speaks in in 1st Corinthians 15 and it folks want I mean that's where Paul takes a whole chapter yeah reflects on the resurrection it's just so much stuff in there but he talks about Jesus being the first fruit when he was raised and part of what we experience is in the resurrection accounts in the gospel is Jesus like suddenly appears right and then he like like goes through walls and then they don't recognize him and they don't recognize him they do and they don't and you know when they're at the seashore they don't recognize him and then they go must be Jesus because he and and so there is this sense of there is a transformation of who we will be in the kingdom come in the world in the life to come yeah that it will not be just like who we are now right um and and it won't be um I don't know that we get to pick our favorite age is it 18 or 27 or or we might be wiser and I wanna be 102 there you go there you go um but so here again we're entering into this speculative sort of realm but yeah what scripture speaks of is it speaks of being with Christ right at the end or at the end of our lives and the resurrection at the end of time one of the other ways that I resolve some of that in my mind is there a sense that after death time has no meaning for us that that it's some sense we're passing beyond time and so that while there might be this existence of time in this world that other people are experiencing we're no longer experiencing that so for us from our death to the resurrection might feel like instantaneous I I I don't know I mean this is where we're moving beyond what we can fully explain and describe right what and and to say that right like so I would go okay that sort of makes some sense but then we have scripture right um in revelation where we have those who've been martyred are at the the alter right of underneath praying you know for justice praying on behalf of humanity and so if it is instantaneous there it doesn't make it kind of doesn't make sense to me because there's people there's people passed on right maybe not in physical form but they're there praying on behalf of humanity praying for God for justice to reign um because they were unjustly killed right and so um yeah I don't know if it's instantaneous although I have thought of this space of um what was it I think CS Lewis said something about purgatory I think it was a believer in purgatory he's like who wouldn't need purgatory hmm when they when they die like who wouldn't need this space to make things right we'll see I've I've said I wanna do a whole another podcast on purgatory having someone who grew up Lutheran and not Roman Catholic so purgatory wasn't a part of I kind of like purgatory but for a different different reasons than I think it was created but or theologically developed but yeah I mean the CS Lewis book if you're referring to that I found so profound and helpful in my thinking is his book The Great Divorce that has nothing to do with marriage but the divorce between heaven and hell and and if you haven't read it for those of you watching it's a powerful book because it's basically he he does imagines in only CS Lewis's imagination yeah of a bus ride from hell to heaven yeah and people given the opportunity you come to heaven and check things out yeah and the truth is they come and they're like oh it's too real oh I don't like this oh it's all about love I don't want love I wanna be about me and it's like most of them get back on the bus and head back yeah because I mean I read it 30 years ago so that's just but it was just this powerful reflection on that that what heaven is yeah it's it's not about Ryan Reynolds and it's not about fishing in Canada sorry sorry it's not even about Russia it is about the wonder of God's Grace and love in us being Basque experiencing that in a way that is beyond what we can even imagine here when we glimpse those moments of where we have so messed up yeah and then we recognize holy God is forgiving me and that overwhelming sense of hold it I don't have to be caught under that burden I'm free from that in the wonder of that feeling yeah and and I get to share in that bask in that for a little bit that's that's heaven that's eternity yeah and and so all of our images of heaven all of our descriptions when it's streets of gold and with all these jewels on the walls it's described in revelation it's just trying to describe the bat the most superlatives the most beyond great that we can describe here in heavens beyond that absolutely it's it's absolute unity with God right and and just basking in that love and I I almost think knowledge right and where you know so many times it's like when I die I'm gonna ask God this and I don't know you're not like as someone who has coded so like I had a massive pulmonary embolism I and I ended up coding they had to bring me back I was in a coma for two months I remember this distinct feeling as though every No. 1 I was surrounded by tons of people who loved me I couldn't quite see their faces I felt um I had no questions I felt piece that I couldn't even kind of explain but it was amazing and I didn't want right I thought this was great I thought I was you know in a it's almost like is this doesn't compare but you know when it's cold out and you have the blanket in the covers and you're like completely perfect and snuggly and then like you you don't like you're you don't have to quite wake up yet or you feel a little bit of the breeze and then you you get to go back to bed I don't know it's like that like a warmth it was like um but I had no questions I felt I felt whole right like I felt there was nothing wrong with me um there's nothing to be fixed there was I don't know it was amazing and I think that full communion with God right in the essence of who we are which is beyond our physical body is um is in heaven is in full communion with the presence of God and yet when we are there you know we have this maybe this looking back on our own life because we do see things in a godly type way in a different with a different lens per se right that this idea of purgatory like I would want to write what I've wronged hmm I would want to um fix things in some kind of way I don't know what that would look like right because don't forget we're children of God and like if my child could could commit a heinous crime and I would be heartbroken and um I would but I'd never stop loving my child and then I'd never stop wanting um my child to be reformed I'd never stop wanting a space for my child to grow and to repent and to be made new like so if me as a human mother would want that how much more does it god that loves beyond our comprehension want that for all of his children God wants to transform us right in this life and beyond um I think it's very true um I really have I always thought in Rick Warren's book The Purpose Driven Life that um in this may not be a precise quote but something like that where he said god is more interested in our character than our comfort yeah and that that God is trying to shape who Kendall is today God is trying to shape who Mo is today God is trying to shape each one of us and are we open to that shaping work that god wants to do in our life and this is where that whole idea of purgatory intrigues me not as punishment as you said but his gym yes training place that that I am either my life is either going to need to get transformed in this life yeah or get transformed in the life to come to be ready to be in the presence of god and so that when I do the challenging work of not holding on to my anger and bitterness but actually forgiving yeah that god that's the Holy Spirit working side of Kendall transforming me and shaping me into greater Christ likeness and the more of I allow that shaping to happen in this life the less that has to happen in the life to come and the less shaping God's gonna have to continue to do in in Kendall because to me that's the way to get around the the cheap Grace conundrum of I'm uh well God likes to I like to sin God likes to forgive it's all good so then I'll just wait until the end of my life I'll keep doing whatever the heck I wanna do now and then then I'll go to heaven at the end because I know who Jesus is that if it really is about the transformation that um hebrews uh 12 1 and 2 to be transformed by the renewing of your mind that god is wanting Kendall's transformation that's why Jesus called people to leave their lives and come and follow him that that transformation would happen right but I either need to be open to that transformation now yeah or it's gonna have to happen sometime yeah because if we're called to look like Christ right that's who we're being transformed into this renewing of the mind and the mind in essence is also I would think connected to our soul right like our heart our soul are the essence of who we are would it not be do we not continue the process when we die yes which but that goes against your sense of going like and I coded and I experience ultimate peace like instantaneously god transform me that yeah and and well in the truth is near deaf experiences people have had NDE oh yeah they're called yeah you know they have that sense of that warmth the right like that transfer that sense of wholeness that sense of peace and yeah and that could yeah chemicals as well that happened during that time for sure but and I'm not saying that everything was oh it's perfect and that was that because I mean I'm here right so like I mean we're still stuck with him up no we're still blessed now yeah they're like send that one back she's not done um but it but this idea of like think about the people who are killed prematurely because of evil in the world and other and horrible things that happen and they're taken at a point in their life where maybe they have they haven't finished growing they haven't finished you know they haven't ran the good race right it was taken from them and so why would a gracious loving god not create or allow or have this space I would think for the continuation of growth maybe unless yeah and let me go to CS Lewis the part of what again not to the great divorce but to the last battle in the um Chronicles of Narnia where he did where it's basically through a stable door that they enter eternity because their life in this world is finished but what they find is that as they enter through the stable door highly symbolic of uh and that they go into a world that keeps getting larger yeah and that heaven isn't somehow on a cloud with a harp that it is a realm of being in Christ presence and of ongoing discovery um I mean it just struck I just read at a funeral recently because the family asked I thought it was very appropriate from Matthew 25 the parable of the talents yeah and that we often read as an analogy or as an allegory and where Jesus words to the one who used the five talents well and earn five more Jesus says to him well done good and faithful servant you have been faithful in little things now I'm gonna give you big things like it's not like now you're done and sitting now I'm gonna give you big things to to develop and you turn five into five more well now I'm gonna let you use your gifts and talents and do more and this sense of that that heaven isn't going to be maybe just lounge chair on the beach yeah that it's going to be a chance to continue to explore the a new world that god has created to do new things that for many people you know us Enneagram threes uh we find joy in doing things in creating things what about the nines who are like sloths do they get to chill on the couch yeah they may get to chill on the couch and maybe us threes will keep getting to do sevens did they get it's like an ultimate party it's a party it's a party that's what it will be um so so I do think but again all of what in this is where that Martin Luther metaphor of we only know the world to come at the level that it infant within yeah within the womb knows this life that it's some level we're having to buy analogy by metaphor speculate what is the promise of being in Christ's presence so do you think scripture at least speaks into this reality that when death occurs that the body goes into the ground to ashes you know to dust we shall return yeah ashes to ashes we shall return type of thing um and it's and I have the different scriptures too we can link them on there um but so so this happens the body goes there the soul right goes to be in the presence of God the essence of who you are I mean you're gonna be with me today in Paradise we have um also in the the other scriptures which one did I read where it was you will be with me immediately well which one is it oh yeah earthly body they will be raised to new life yeah this idea of just being with God right so do you do you think that well let me ask you let me flip the question back on you Mo so if you're saying that your soul goes to be with Christ well I know our bodies I think our bodies go on the ground okay but well yeah I mean I mean I mean I mean I watch it I watch it happen yes we have say your soul is going to heaven then what happens at the end of time how do you understand that is that when Christ returns at the end and scriptures say in the in 1st Corinthians 50 and the dead will be raised yeah so what is it is it then your soul becoming raised into a new body or you already in that body in heaven how do you understand oh no you can't be in it well cause I mean we have scripture that say um okay so first

Corinthians 15:

50 54 what I am saying dear brothers and sisters is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever so Paul says that right there and um and there's other scripture that speaks into how our body um our physical body goes into the grave and but yet we're with God when we die okay so I guess I'm I guess I'm asking a question are you a disembodied soul in heaven with Christ after your death yeah and then you become in a embodied spiritual body but not yeah um at at the time of the resurrection or do you think that that resurrection that you are in a um spiritual body in heaven immediately after death we're totally speculating at this point like I would I would say I mean I would say I don't care like if I mean you give me a fake weird but I don't know like but I think the essence of who we are not being physical body right um maybe maybe the essence of who we are is a body but unlike one we understand or quite know right um but we will raise again embody I believe that physical body however I think our new bodies won't look like our old bodies because of what I've read in Scripture and because Jesus the first fruit of of the resurrection his body was it was both recognizable and not recognizable right but kind of look like who we were but but different yeah and and had different capacities so what do you think of this idea really quick about you know I mean I always have this hard space when I'm doing funerals or wakes and or being present at awake and people are talking about their loved one I mean you want to uh be in a space that gives them what they need right and so um yet you want with to act with integrity of what you know uh within scripture and and the character of God what do you do when it's like oh so and so is you know doing this or having a big party like what do you think of those things do you um sure like yeah that's happening or I don't know yeah I don't know and I tend to be less specific yeah um about what I know yeah what I do know is and here's where we started is that I believe we are more than conquerors through him who loved us and that neither life nor death nor anything in the world can separate us from the love of god in Christ Jesus our Lord and that promise that he has gone to prepare a place for us is all that I need and the details are the details right if I have that hope in that confidence I'm good and I wanna make sure and proclaim that remember that I agree 100% next time on Unpacking Truths were you one of those that like knew what you wanted to do as when you were young no no I envisioned you like 6 like setting up puppets like in people like and preaching to them I thought no I did not do that I did do in 6th grade well um we uh I went to Lutheran grade school and we had to give a devotion and I did a devotion and it was like the longest devotion of any of the sixth graders so it it I think it was okay but yeah so maybe I was but no I I didn't know from a little kid necessarily I was gonna be a bastard thanks for tuning in if anything you said brought up any questions or ideas let's keep the conversation going in the comments below or email us at unpacking truths at loc church.com and don't forget to like share and subscribe so we can continue helping people unpack God's truth for their lives

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Pastor Kendall Koenig

Host
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Pastor Maureen O'Connor

Host